Unions

allison

Well-Known Member
#1
Are unions a good thing or a bad thing, and why?

I personally do not like unions. Sure, they were good in the 1900's when the conditions were very bad (business monopolies, child labor, etc). But we have laws preventing that now. With unions, I believe that the workers get too much power. My father is in small business, and the unions have been nothing but trouble. Also, oftentimes, workers are forced to join a union, even if they don't want to. I know this because my aunt is a teacher, and they have forced her to join the teacher's union, and she absolutely despises it. This is a freedom of choice violation in my eyes. In my state, our governor John Kasich cracked down on the unions, and we went from having an 8 billion dollar defecit to a 1 billion dollar surplus.
 

Monorail

Well-Known Member
#4
I believe that Unions keep businesses in line, and prevent them from overstepping bounds and hurting the worker for capital gain.

On the other hand, I believe that they have become very controlling of the individual worker.

I guess it's really a matter of perception, and case.

Are unions a good thing or a bad thing, and why?
In my state, our governor John Kasich cracked down on the unions, and we went from having an 8 billion dollar defecit to a 1 billion dollar surplus.
That's actually pretty interesting. Do you have a source for the info? Or, if you don't mind me asking, can I know what state you live in and when this was? I'd be interested to read about this!
 

Whispered

Well-Known Member
#5
I believe that Unions keep businesses in line, and prevent them from overstepping bounds and hurting the worker for capital gain.

On the other hand, I believe that they have become very controlling of the individual worker.

I guess it's really a matter of perception, and case.



That's actually pretty interesting. Do you have a source for the info? Or, if you don't mind me asking, can I know what state you live in and when this was? I'd be interested to read about this!
Do you consider forcing a district to rehire a teacher caught multiple times watching pornography in the classroom to be "hurting the worker for capital gain" and something that should be prevented?

Do you consider forcing workers to not submit to drug tests such that the district has to spend money and time to test workers who used a bathroom where drug paraphernalia were found when everyone knows one of them did it, is that really "hurting the worker"?

Unions now-a-days are more anti-company in general - whatever the company does they don't like it. They don't give two flying flips about any individual worker as long as their heads get their paychecks and they keep their friends in power/job.
 

allison

Well-Known Member
#6
I believe that Unions keep businesses in line, and prevent them from overstepping bounds and hurting the worker for capital gain.

On the other hand, I believe that they have become very controlling of the individual worker.

I guess it's really a matter of perception, and case.



That's actually pretty interesting. Do you have a source for the info? Or, if you don't mind me asking, can I know what state you live in and when this was? I'd be interested to read about this!
Careful, your sarcasm is showing.
A simple Google search for John Kasich's name would have revealed that I live in Ohio.
Here is a source.
http://transforming.ohio.gov/index.aspx
 

Monorail

Well-Known Member
#7
Careful, your sarcasm is showing.
A simple Google search for John Kasich's name would have revealed that I live in Ohio.
Here is a source.
http://transforming.ohio.gov/index.aspx
I can see why you thought I was being sarcastic, I really wasn't! I'm genuinely interested in how a crack down on unions would effect debt like that.

Again that sounds sarcastic, but in all honesty I just want to know.

EDIT: There's nothing about unions in the link I don't think..
 
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#8
car·tel - noun - an association of manufacturers or suppliers with the purpose of maintaining prices at a high level and restricting competition.
Thus, a union is a cartel. Same thing as if AMD and Intel got together and said, let's both raise our prices, and use our combined efforts to legislate other startups out of existence.
 

Monorail

Well-Known Member
#9
Do you consider forcing a district to rehire a teacher caught multiple times watching pornography in the classroom to be "hurting the worker for capital gain" and something that should be prevented?

Do you consider forcing workers to not submit to drug tests such that the district has to spend money and time to test workers who used a bathroom where drug paraphernalia were found when everyone knows one of them did it, is that really "hurting the worker"?

Unions now-a-days are more anti-company in general - whatever the company does they don't like it. They don't give two flying flips about any individual worker as long as their heads get their paychecks and they keep their friends in power/job.
I understand the power unions have in these regards. I know this power can be used for things that it shouldn't, but it can and is in some cases used to protect workers.
 

allison

Well-Known Member
#10
I can see why you thought I was being sarcastic, I really wasn't! I'm genuinely interested in how a crack down on unions would effect debt like that.

Again that sounds sarcastic, but in all honesty I just want to know.
Ok. Think of is this way. The whole purpose of a union is for the workers to negotiate with their employers, right? Well, unions can get out of hand. Workers start asking for wages that are basically, not within reason. They threaten to go on strike, so the employer is basically forced to appease said workers and give them a high salary. However, if you have laws preventing this kind of behavior, then it won't get out of hand, and the employers do not have to pay out higher wages, which stimulates the business, and ultimately the economy.
 

Monorail

Well-Known Member
#11
Ok. Think of is this way. The whole purpose of a union is for the workers to negotiate with their employers, right? Well, unions can get out of hand. Workers start asking for wages that are basically, not within reason. They threaten to go on strike, so the employer is basically forced to appease said workers and give them a high salary. However, if you have laws preventing this kind of behavior, then it won't get out of hand, and the employers do not have to pay out higher wages, which stimulates the business, and ultimately the economy.
Right, I understand that completely. But you can't really make laws to prevent the assembly of workers, or their right to not work as a group.

I understand the ways unions can be bad, but they can also protect the worker. That's why I'm neither for or against them as a whole, because they aren't all the same. It seems to be situational.
 

allison

Well-Known Member
#12
Thus, a union is a cartel. Same thing as if AMD and Intel got together and said, let's both raise our prices, and use our combined efforts to legislate other startups out of existence.
So are you saying that unions are good or bad? I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to get at, and that's my fault.
 

Monorail

Well-Known Member
#13
So are you saying that unions are good or bad? I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to get at, and that's my fault.
You could say they are either or.

Using the example of AMD and Intel:

pro: Using their combined efforts and income to create new product and further the industry faster than as competitors.

con: Artificially raising prices together to give the consumer no substitute and forcing them to pay that price
 
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#14
So are you saying that unions are good or bad? I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to get at, and that's my fault.
I don't know. I'm not fond of them, but I also recognize they have certain merits. In general, I lean much the same way I feel about corporations. They shouldn't be allowed to make campaign contributions. It's anti-competitive though, which I don't like.
 
#15
Thus, a union is a cartel. Same thing as if AMD and Intel got together and said, let's both raise our prices, and use our combined efforts to legislate other startups out of existence.
It's the same, except corporations are not people, so it's not.

I'd much rather give monopolistic power to actual humans rather than entities which legally manifest as "people." That said, I'm still not entirely comfortable with any kind of anti-competitive power, but if there has to be some, unions are preferable to a corporate cartel.

Ok. Think of is this way. The whole purpose of a union is for the workers to negotiate with their employers, right? Well, unions can get out of hand. Workers start asking for wages that are basically, not within reason. They threaten to go on strike, so the employer is basically forced to appease said workers and give them a high salary. However, if you have laws preventing this kind of behavior, then it won't get out of hand, and the employers do not have to pay out higher wages, which stimulates the business, and ultimately the economy.
Middle class wages are the economy.
 
#16
It's the same, except corporations are not people, so it's not.

I'd much rather give monopolistic power to actual humans rather than entities which legally manifest as "people." That said, I'm still not entirely comfortable with any kind of anti-competitive power, but if there has to be some, unions are preferable to a corporate cartel.



Middle class wages are the economy.
A corporation is a group of people selling a certain product.
A union is a group of people selling a certain product.
Exact same thing.
 
#17
A corporation is a group of people selling a certain product.
A union is a group of people selling a certain product.
Exact same thing.
AMD and Intel are each groups of people. AMD and Intel together are a group of groups of people. It's a technicality, but a union is more personal than a bunch of companies grouped together.
 
#19
I believe unions are necessary to prevent discrimination in the workplace/illegal work actions. It's 2014 and I have worked for multiple places where we did not receive our breaks on time/at all, and as a woman I got paid less than a man doing the same job. I work for Costco (a union) seasonally, and I have to say it's my favorite job because the work standards are reasonable and the pay is fair no matter age, gender, or race. Just because affirmative action is a thing doesn't mean there isn't any workplace discrimination. Unions help fight that. I think they are still necessary.
 

Goddess

Where did 4 years go?!
#20
Unions are there to protect the rights of the workers, which believe it or not, are often disregarded when the workers don't know what they're entitled to and the kind of treatment they don't have to subject themselves to. Such as discrimination, disparagement of treatment, forced demands, etc.

For example, when I was 18 I was naive about a few things until my father explained them to me. For one, you can't work off the clock, and if you're forced to, you have to notify wage-an-hour and it becomes a mess after that (one thing with which I was asked and manipulated in to doing many times, because I was 18 and was scared to death I'd get fired if I didn't wait on my boss hand and foot). In my job at the time, they didn't have unions, so it was up to the workers to know their rights, and defend them when their bosses got out of hand with their demands. I've gone 12 hr shifts before without any 15 min breaks, or a 30 min lunch break. I was hurt on the job, and given a hassle when I called out the next 2 days because I couldn't come to work. I was asked to work off the clock so my hours wouldn't spill in to overtime which would rain on my bosses parade from the corporate bosses. And I was forced to take shoots (I was a studio photographer) with abusive customers (one time a woman grabbed me and shook me), and animals I was not comfortable with or was allergic to. It didn't dawn on me until I had a talk with my dad 6 months later that I had the option to say no to all of these things, but I didn't know this because we didn't have a union and I was too young to know that jobs came with workers rights.

Another thing I can say for Unions, is if it weren't for them, my father would have been treated like dirt, and probably let go ages ago because he has seniority and they don't want to pay him the money he's spent 20 yrs earning and deserves.

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Ok. Think of is this way. The whole purpose of a union is for the workers to negotiate with their employers, right? Well, unions can get out of hand. Workers start asking for wages that are basically, not within reason. They threaten to go on strike, so the employer is basically forced to appease said workers and give them a high salary. However, if you have laws preventing this kind of behavior, then it won't get out of hand, and the employers do not have to pay out higher wages, which stimulates the business, and ultimately the economy.
The entire purpose of a union isn't just to negotiate demands from the employee's with the employers. It's also to protect the rights of the worker so employers don't overstep boundaries, or force demands on the workers. It essentially, gives the workers a voice that employers/businesses will listen to. The worker themselves are often disregarded in their demands because it's just 1 person or multiple people in separate accounts. But when you come together, to form a union, your demands can be heard better.

(Source: http://unionsact.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4&Itemid=8)
Explains what a unions purpose is, and what a union in the workplace itself is.
This is a link explaining Australia's labor union, but it's the same essential idea for the guidelines and explanation of what unions are about.
The sections to focus on are the ones that correlate to this statement.
 
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