"Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner"?

WHO

Active Member
#1
So I've heard hundreds of times from Christians when they are talking about the LGBT community that they hate the sin, but love the sinner. The sin being that person's sexual identity. So that leads me to the question: in this case, is it possible to love someone but hate that part of who they are?

I think not. It'd be the same thing as me saying "I love you, but I hate that you're black" or "I love you, but I hate the fact you have hair."

Discuss.
 

Oreo

LIKE NOBODY'S BIDNEHHZ
#2
I think it has to do more with "I love you but I don't like your choices." I'm not agreeing with the Christian opinion on homosexuality, I'm just explaining what I perceive the saying means. Most Christians think sexuality is a "choice," so comparing it against thinks like race or having hair isn't exactly fair.

Again, I don't agree with the Christian's views on homosexuality, nor do I think sexuality is a choice. I'm just explaining what I think the quote means. :cloud:
 

WHO

Active Member
#3
I think it has to do more with "I love you but I don't like your choices." I'm not agreeing with the Christian opinion on homosexuality, I'm just explaining what I perceive the saying means. Most Christians think sexuality is a "choice," so comparing it against thinks like race or having hair isn't exactly fair.

Again, I don't agree with the Christian's views on homosexuality, nor do I think sexuality is a choice. I'm just explaining what I think the quote means. :cloud:
So it's not possible to love the sinner but hate the sin?
 

Oreo

LIKE NOBODY'S BIDNEHHZ
#4
So it's not possible to love the sinner but hate the sin?
Mmm...no, I think it is possible depending on the "sin." I'm taking sexuality completely out of the mix because that's not a sin nor does sexual preference change a person's character. I think it's not possible to love the sinner, but hate the sin if the sin is something like serial killing or any other type of action that is similar. Something like that comes from your character, it's not a simple act that you do. Somebody who feels the need/finds pleasure in killing innocent people is not someone I will love. So in that case, I would hate the sinner and hate the sin.
 
Last edited:

Kirllan

Forever Noob!
#7
Well, we are talking about God here. Has anyone read the Ten Commandments lately? I will not post them here but if you want to find them they are in Exodus 20 in any given English print bible you can find in America. Well, as a Christian I will tell ya what I have learned about God reading through the Old Testament. I won't refer a bunch of verses to verify my thoughts. If you want to though read through the entire bible yourself and you might just see what I see.

Well, The Ten Commandments are not just suggestions otherwise they would be the Ten Suggestions. God expects all people everywhere to repent and believe on Him. Now think about it, what is sin? Well, when you break a commandment of God you are sinning against Him. So sin is anything that God hates. Does God like liars? thieves? murderers? idolaters? By all means no and how are these sins committed? By people. So if you really think carefully God hates the sin and the sinner because that person knows very well what he/she is doing is wrong within their conscience they are held accountable.

Now, let's take a courtroom. In a court of law you are brought before the judge because you did something wrong. If the judge finds you guilty what does he say? 'I know you did something wrong but that was a choice and you are not guilty but the choice is guilty' Of course not. He throws your butt in jail for a sentence.

If you look carefully at the Ten Commandments these are commanded. These are laws that you must adhere to or you are guilty of breaking that commandment. Based on this knowledge let's say you were to die and you went to God's heavenly courtroom in the sky and you were brought before Him to see if you been faithful to His commandments. Now, if God was to rule 'I hate the sin but I love you so you can go' that would be silly. God is Love and He is also Justice. If He were to let all people in and not punish any then what kind of judge would the Almighty God be?

My point being is I have read the entire bible over 9 times in my life and God is pretty straight about what He wants out of His creation. Now, I know the Op made a point to make the discussion about Homosexuality and Christianity but to tell you the truth that gets in the way of the Christian message. The problem is not Homosexuality, it is a total misunderstanding of the God who made this entire world possible. When we finally are able to focus on that then we can know why Christians are the way they are about Homosexuality.

I will leave you with one bible verse that kind of shows what I am saying and let you do the study.

Romans 12:19 NASB

Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
 

WHO

Active Member
#8
Well, we are talking about God here. Has anyone read the Ten Commandments lately? I will not post them here but if you want to find them they are in Exodus 20 in any given English print bible you can find in America. Well, as a Christian I will tell ya what I have learned about God reading through the Old Testament. I won't refer a bunch of verses to verify my thoughts. If you want to though read through the entire bible yourself and you might just see what I see.

Well, The Ten Commandments are not just suggestions otherwise they would be the Ten Suggestions. God expects all people everywhere to repent and believe on Him. Now think about it, what is sin? Well, when you break a commandment of God you are sinning against Him. So sin is anything that God hates. Does God like liars? thieves? murderers? idolaters? By all means no and how are these sins committed? By people. So if you really think carefully God hates the sin and the sinner because that person knows very well what he/she is doing is wrong within their conscience they are held accountable.

Now, let's take a courtroom. In a court of law you are brought before the judge because you did something wrong. If the judge finds you guilty what does he say? 'I know you did something wrong but that was a choice and you are not guilty but the choice is guilty' Of course not. He throws your butt in jail for a sentence.

If you look carefully at the Ten Commandments these are commanded. These are laws that you must adhere to or you are guilty of breaking that commandment. Based on this knowledge let's say you were to die and you went to God's heavenly courtroom in the sky and you were brought before Him to see if you been faithful to His commandments. Now, if God was to rule 'I hate the sin but I love you so you can go' that would be silly. God is Love and He is also Justice. If He were to let all people in and not punish any then what kind of judge would the Almighty God be?

My point being is I have read the entire bible over 9 times in my life and God is pretty straight about what He wants out of His creation. Now, I know the Op made a point to make the discussion about Homosexuality and Christianity but to tell you the truth that gets in the way of the Christian message. The problem is not Homosexuality, it is a total misunderstanding of the God who made this entire world possible. When we finally are able to focus on that then we can know why Christians are the way they are about Homosexuality.

I will leave you with one bible verse that kind of shows what I am saying and let you do the study.

Romans 12:19 NASB

Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
But homosexuals are born that way. So is it still a sin? Because sexuality can't really be put into the same group as liars, murders, rapists, because those are all a choice. Homosexuality is not.
 

Oreo

LIKE NOBODY'S BIDNEHHZ
#9
I'm sorry but God never condemns homosexuality in the Bible and the fact that Christians act like it's the biggest thing in the bible is ridiculous. God mentions homosexuality LITERALLY only 3 times, and Christians have chosen to misinterpret each very small mention he gives. I am Christian and am ashamed with other Christians who aren't supportive of gay rights. And if they truly believe they should spend so much time fussing over sins, why aren't you fussing over things like divorce and remarriages? God literally spends more time condemning remarrying after divorcing more than he does homosexuality yet I see many anti-gay rights getting married 3, 4, and 5 times and literally committing so many other sins. Like really. Open up your eyes people. And if you truly believe that god says that a "man shall not sleep with another man" then you should only be against gay rights technically, considering that God never condemned homosexuality, just the ACT of sleeping with someone of the same gender.
 

Monorail

Well-Known Member
#10
I'm sorry but God never condemns homosexuality in the Bible and the fact that Christians act like it's the biggest thing in the bible is ridiculous. God mentions homosexuality LITERALLY only 3 times, and Christians have chosen to misinterpret each very small mention he gives. I am Christian and am ashamed with other Christians who aren't supportive of gay rights. And if they truly believe they should spend so much time fussing over sins, why aren't you fussing over things like divorce and remarriages? God literally spends more time condemning remarrying after divorcing more than he does homosexuality yet I see many anti-gay rights getting married 3, 4, and 5 times and literally committing so many other sins. Like really. Open up your eyes people. And if you truly believe that god says that a "man shall not sleep with another man" then you should only be against gay rights technically, considering that God never condemned homosexuality, just the ACT of sleeping with someone of the same gender.

Can you please go over how homosexuality is taken out of context in the bible?

http://www.openbible.info/topics/homosexuality

It seems to be a lot more than three times.


EDIT: If you're saying that the bible condemns sex, and not being a homosexual, I kind of understand, but I'd still be interested to see how you respond to the verses.
 
#11
Ignoring the Old testement which christians so love to quote even though a majority of those rules are either outdated (which how is that possible if your god is all knowing???) Jesus never directly says anything against homosexuality, which let's be real, he probably was against. Anyway it's funny how christians like to slam dunk that one sin when god says

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
 

Goddess

Where did 4 years go?!
#12
Personally I don't see sexuality as something that defines who you are. It's a part of you, a large part of you, but it doesn't define your character or who you are as a person. So for me, it has more to do with the content of your character and the kind of person you are that makes me "love" or "hate" you. The sin is circumstantial, because it depends on the kind of sin being committed. Certain sins of a more radical caliber are usually reflections of the kind of person you are and the content of your character, so in those aspects I would say you hate the sinner and hate the sin. But if it's something on the small side of the sinners spectrum, I'd say you love the sinner, hate the sin. It's all circumstantial in my opinion, it's not so generic or as broad as they categorize it to be.
 

WHO

Active Member
#13
Personally I don't see sexuality as something that defines who you are. It's a part of you, a large part of you, but it doesn't define your character or who you are as a person. So for me, it has more to do with the content of your character and the kind of person you are that makes me "love" or "hate" you. The sin is circumstantial, because it depends on the kind of sin being committed. Certain sins of a more radical caliber are usually reflections of the kind of person you are and the content of your character, so in those aspects I would say you hate the sinner and hate the sin. But if it's something on the small side of the sinners spectrum, I'd say you love the sinner, hate the sin. It's all circumstantial in my opinion, it's not so generic or as broad as they categorize it to be.

The debate isn't "Does homosexuality define who you are?" It doesn't. But the question is: is it possible to hate that someone is gay, that not being a choice, but still love them?

Maybe I'm misreading your post. But you didn't seem to answer the question and it all seems mumbled together.
 

allison

Well-Known Member
#14
I think it's possible. I mean, I couldn't imagine a mother not loving her son if he was gay. Even if she had negative feelings towards homosexuality. Although you never know for sure


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

allison

Well-Known Member
#16

Kirllan

Forever Noob!
#17
Well, we are talking about God here. Has anyone read the Ten Commandments lately? I will not post them here but if you want to find them they are in Exodus 20 in any given English print bible you can find in America. Well, as a Christian I will tell ya what I have learned about God reading through the Old Testament. I won't refer a bunch of verses to verify my thoughts. If you want to though read through the entire bible yourself and you might just see what I see.

Well, The Ten Commandments are not just suggestions otherwise they would be the Ten Suggestions. God expects all people everywhere to repent and believe on Him. Now think about it, what is sin? Well, when you break a commandment of God you are sinning against Him. So sin is anything that God hates. Does God like liars? thieves? murderers? idolaters? By all means no and how are these sins committed? By people. So if you really think carefully God hates the sin and the sinner because that person knows very well what he/she is doing is wrong within their conscience they are held accountable.

Now, let's take a courtroom. In a court of law you are brought before the judge because you did something wrong. If the judge finds you guilty what does he say? 'I know you did something wrong but that was a choice and you are not guilty but the choice is guilty' Of course not. He throws your butt in jail for a sentence.

If you look carefully at the Ten Commandments these are commanded. These are laws that you must adhere to or you are guilty of breaking that commandment. Based on this knowledge let's say you were to die and you went to God's heavenly courtroom in the sky and you were brought before Him to see if you been faithful to His commandments. Now, if God was to rule 'I hate the sin but I love you so you can go' that would be silly. God is Love and He is also Justice. If He were to let all people in and not punish any then what kind of judge would the Almighty God be?

My point being is I have read the entire bible over 9 times in my life and God is pretty straight about what He wants out of His creation. Now, I know the Op made a point to make the discussion about Homosexuality and Christianity but to tell you the truth that gets in the way of the Christian message. The problem is not Homosexuality, it is a total misunderstanding of the God who made this entire world possible. When we finally are able to focus on that then we can know why Christians are the way they are about Homosexuality.

I will leave you with one bible verse that kind of shows what I am saying and let you do the study.

Romans 12:19 NASB

Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
But homosexuals are born that way. So is it still a sin? Because sexuality can't really be put into the same group as liars, murders, rapists, because those are all a choice. Homosexuality is not.
Using your 'born that way' statement I will help you understand the biblical view of sin. As per our ancient ancestors Adam and Eve when they sinned they brought the world into a curse. This doctrine is the doctrine of Original Sin. After Adam and Eve had kids these kids were born with Original Sin so in essence you are very right we are all born to sin. We don't sin because we want to, we sin because we are born sinners and are bound by our will to sin. Even a 'good work' has taint of sin in it. I have witnessed to many Homosexuals and I treat them like I would any given sinner. They have sin and they need a Savior. As I pointed out we are all sinners so Homosexuals are people like everyone else and are prone to break the Ten Commandments. My point being is an idolater is born to be an idolater, an adulterer is born to be an adulterer, a murderer is born to be a murderer. If you can see my analogy by now you will understand that a Homosexual is born to be a homosexual. Do understand if it was not for the revelation of the bible from the Almighty God I would think homosexuality is just fine, but because the Maker of my existence showed us how evil we are I fall in line and confess him to be true. But realize, just because we are born this way does not make it right, maybe in human eyes but not in the eyes of the one who allows us all to exist and have our being. I have sins I have had to deal with in my life, we all do. When you see that doctrine of Original Sin in it's context then you start to realize what Christianity is all about. It is not about being a political force, not about protesting at a funeral, not about using the bible to beat people into submission but to save lost souls and help them to see what God sees. If people do not like what God sees then it is sad, but it is true whether you hate it or not. God does not hate the sin and the sinner for naught though, his Law leads us to Salvation. Either way I believe I have made my premise clear enough. There is not much more on this subject I can actually dive into. Thanks for the inquiry. :)

----------

Ignoring the Old testement which christians so love to quote even though a majority of those rules are either outdated (which how is that possible if your god is all knowing???) Jesus never directly says anything against homosexuality, which let's be real, he probably was against. Anyway it's funny how christians like to slam dunk that one sin when god says

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
I wanted to quote yours separately because as I recall this debate is about 'Love the sinner but hate the sin'

If you want to start a debate on this subject then I would be obliged to answer your premise thoroughly. Thanks
 
#18
Well, we are talking about God here. Has anyone read the Ten Commandments lately? I will not post them here but if you want to find them they are in Exodus 20 in any given English print bible you can find in America. Well, as a Christian I will tell ya what I have learned about God reading through the Old Testament. I won't refer a bunch of verses to verify my thoughts. If you want to though read through the entire bible yourself and you might just see what I see.

Well, The Ten Commandments are not just suggestions otherwise they would be the Ten Suggestions. God expects all people everywhere to repent and believe on Him. Now think about it, what is sin? Well, when you break a commandment of God you are sinning against Him. So sin is anything that God hates. Does God like liars? thieves? murderers? idolaters? By all means no and how are these sins committed? By people. So if you really think carefully God hates the sin and the sinner because that person knows very well what he/she is doing is wrong within their conscience they are held accountable.

Now, let's take a courtroom. In a court of law you are brought before the judge because you did something wrong. If the judge finds you guilty what does he say? 'I know you did something wrong but that was a choice and you are not guilty but the choice is guilty' Of course not. He throws your butt in jail for a sentence.

If you look carefully at the Ten Commandments these are commanded. These are laws that you must adhere to or you are guilty of breaking that commandment. Based on this knowledge let's say you were to die and you went to God's heavenly courtroom in the sky and you were brought before Him to see if you been faithful to His commandments. Now, if God was to rule 'I hate the sin but I love you so you can go' that would be silly. God is Love and He is also Justice. If He were to let all people in and not punish any then what kind of judge would the Almighty God be?

My point being is I have read the entire bible over 9 times in my life and God is pretty straight about what He wants out of His creation. Now, I know the Op made a point to make the discussion about Homosexuality and Christianity but to tell you the truth that gets in the way of the Christian message. The problem is not Homosexuality, it is a total misunderstanding of the God who made this entire world possible. When we finally are able to focus on that then we can know why Christians are the way they are about Homosexuality.

I will leave you with one bible verse that kind of shows what I am saying and let you do the study.

Romans 12:19 NASB

Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
But homosexuals are born that way. So is it still a sin? Because sexuality can't really be put into the same group as liars, murders, rapists, because those are all a choice. Homosexuality is not.
Using your 'born that way' statement I will help you understand the biblical view of sin. As per our ancient ancestors Adam and Eve when they sinned they brought the world into a curse. This doctrine is the doctrine of Original Sin. After Adam and Eve had kids these kids were born with Original Sin so in essence you are very right we are all born to sin. We don't sin because we want to, we sin because we are born sinners and are bound by our will to sin. Even a 'good work' has taint of sin in it. I have witnessed to many Homosexuals and I treat them like I would any given sinner. They have sin and they need a Savior. As I pointed out we are all sinners so Homosexuals are people like everyone else and are prone to break the Ten Commandments. My point being is an idolater is born to be an idolater, an adulterer is born to be an adulterer, a murderer is born to be a murderer. If you can see my analogy by now you will understand that a Homosexual is born to be a homosexual. Do understand if it was not for the revelation of the bible from the Almighty God I would think homosexuality is just fine, but because the Maker of my existence showed us how evil we are I fall in line and confess him to be true. But realize, just because we are born this way does not make it right, maybe in human eyes but not in the eyes of the one who allows us all to exist and have our being. I have sins I have had to deal with in my life, we all do. When you see that doctrine of Original Sin in it's context then you start to realize what Christianity is all about. It is not about being a political force, not about protesting at a funeral, not about using the bible to beat people into submission but to save lost souls and help them to see what God sees. If people do not like what God sees then it is sad, but it is true whether you hate it or not. God does not hate the sin and the sinner for naught though, his Law leads us to Salvation. Either way I believe I have made my premise clear enough. There is not much more on this subject I can actually dive into. Thanks for the inquiry. :)

----------

Ignoring the Old testement which christians so love to quote even though a majority of those rules are either outdated (which how is that possible if your god is all knowing???) Jesus never directly says anything against homosexuality, which let's be real, he probably was against. Anyway it's funny how christians like to slam dunk that one sin when god says

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
I wanted to quote yours separately because as I recall this debate is about 'Love the sinner but hate the sin'

If you want to start a debate on this subject then I would be obliged to answer your premise thoroughly. Thanks
oh get over yourself, i was referencing someone elses post, although i do apologize to ICON for going off topic
 

WHO

Active Member
#19
So I've heard hundreds of times from Christians when they are talking about the LGBT community that they hate the sin, but love the sinner. The sin being that person's sexual identity. So that leads me to the question: in this case, is it possible to love someone but hate that part of who they are?

I think not. It'd be the same thing as me saying "I love you, but I hate that you're black" or "I love you, but I hate the fact you have hair."

Discuss.
To go back to the original question, I think it is possible to hate someone's sin, but love that person.

When Christians used the phrase, it's meant as a way of showing that although they are opposed to homosexuality (in this case), they don't hate gay people. They hate the fact that they are gay, but separate that feeling from the people themselves, whom they care very much for.

Here's a similar example: my best friend got bad grades in high school. I thought that was dumb, and he could have had better grades because he wasn't trying to do well. I never stopped loving him as my friend or wanting the best for him, I just wasn't crazy about his decisions. Does that makes sense?

Yes, but does your friend think he's born with bad grades?
 

WHO

Active Member
#20
So I've heard hundreds of times from Christians when they are talking about the LGBT community that they hate the sin, but love the sinner. The sin being that person's sexual identity. So that leads me to the question: in this case, is it possible to love someone but hate that part of who they are?

I think not. It'd be the same thing as me saying "I love you, but I hate that you're black" or "I love you, but I hate the fact you have hair."

Discuss.
To go back to the original question, I think it is possible to hate someone's sin, but love that person.

When Christians used the phrase, it's meant as a way of showing that although they are opposed to homosexuality (in this case), they don't hate gay people. They hate the fact that they are gay, but separate that feeling from the people themselves, whom they care very much for.

Here's a similar example: my best friend got bad grades in high school. I thought that was dumb, and he could have had better grades because he wasn't trying to do well. I never stopped loving him as my friend or wanting the best for him, I just wasn't crazy about his decisions. Does that makes sense?

Yes, but does your friend think he's born with bad grades?
Why should this make a difference? If I think the fact that he's making bad grades is a bad thing, but I love him anyway, I'm loving him while hating his laziness. Maybe he was born with that trait, maybe he wasn't. Point still stands.

I realize that you're implying I shouldn't see homosexuality as a sin if a person is born with/doesn't choose to be gay. I'll preemptively respond by saying that I think there is, with any sin, a difference between the temptation to sin and the act of actually sinning. For instance, have you ever walked through a store and thought, "I could totally steal that thing right now," but you didn't because you knew it was wrong and you don't want to steal? I do that all the time. Sometimes, that can go a step further, to where you're tempted to follow through on whatever the sin is, like you start actually considering stealing the thing. You haven't sinned yet, but you thought about it, and being tempted isn't sinning. And then, sometimes, you actually do act on those desires. That's where you're doing something wrong.

I believe that's true for all sin, so homosexuality shouldn't be any different. If a guy is attracted to other guys and didn't choose to be, that attraction in and of itself is not a sin because sin is a choice. That's temptation. There's a point where it becomes a sin, and I can't say exactly where (possibly if you dwell on the thought too long? It's always hard to specify when exactly a sin, particularly a sin relating to thoughts, occurs, so again, not sure when), but I hope that clears things up.
Well, I guess its more of a debate of whether you think you are born that way or not. I don't see being straight a sin or being gay. I don't think either is a choice, personally. Homosexuals know themselves better, just as anyone else knows themselves better. So I'm not sure how far the debate can go considering it depends if gay people are born that way or not. Being gay is the same as being straight in my opinion.
 
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