Thoughts on Cecil the Lion?

[PIGGIESARECOOL]

I have always hated the idea of "Trophy Hunting"... I do not get to upset when people deer or ducks or fish because we have used them as meat in our history and even present...but when people go to kill wild ENDANGERED animals out in protected areas, I get really irritated and upset. I have been following this story and I have been upset with what has happened. However, I am happy that more people are beginning to realize how big of an issue "Trophy hunting" is. If you are not familiar with the phrase, "Trophy Hunting," it is basically where people are going to Africa to kill large, wild, endangered animals and take pictures with their prey and begin to skin them. The man who killed Cecil the Lion has also killed 47 other animals, all including elephants, giraffes, cheetahs, and lions. I do know that this man did not know this Lion was protecting or a beloved animal. He claims he had a permit to kill a lion. How can a person be allowed to have permission to kill such endangered animals... I have also read an article about another young woman who has killed 114 wild African animals. These people claim it is a sport and I just want to know how other people are feeling on this subject. I have always had a big heart for animals and it just makes me so sad to see that this is considered a "sport" to some people...


EDIT: Debate topic: Do you think trophy hunting should be legal or illegal?

 

[Captain-Heather]

I'll say this: I don't think we should kill endangered species.

That being said, I know for a fact that the various governments of Africa sell a limited number of legal permits to hunt specific animals each year to help support the costs of running their preserves and help protect endangered species. We actually also do this in the United States. These permits can go for big bucks, so I can see why they do it. They also only sell the permits when there is considered a surplus of animals (aka the animal could not be sustained with the current plant/prey population) or if they know that they have a specific animal getting old that will die soon, they let someone "hunt" it. They also usually specify only this species that is this gender and this age. Most hunters might not be able to tell those things, so they have to take an expert along with them to verify all of these facts. If they accidentally kill the wrong animal, they can be fined big time.

So poaching = NOT OK. Selling legal permits and hunting with those permits = OK.

Just my opinion. I would never hunt animals because I can't even stand to see a squirrel killed on the side of the road But I can see that others might enjoy it.

 

[Whispered]

People are on a witchhunt for the person who shot the arrow that wounded the animal. That person was, likely, the victim of a scam from the "guides". These guides are the ones who actually lured the animal out of its habitat, and groomed it to be shot with the arrow. Furthermore, the animal was not killed with the bow and arrow, but by gun a few days later.

The only ones who should be prosecuted or in trouble for this are those who are illegally selling fake permits and assisting foreigners in killing non-legal animals. The person who was the victim of the scam should not be punished.


People need to sit back and think: What does going after this dentist, making him lose his practice and his source of income, do? Nothing. What would happen if the two guides were successfully thrown in jail? A couple of scam artists who were illegally killing animals would be locked up. They're the problem, not the hunter who got scammed.

 

[Rose-Red]

People are on a witchhunt for the person who shot the arrow that wounded the animal. That person was, likely, the victim of a scam from the "guides". These guides are the ones who actually lured the animal out of its habitat, and groomed it to be shot with the arrow. Furthermore, the animal was not killed with the bow and arrow, but by gun a few days later.

The only ones who should be prosecuted or in trouble for this are those who are illegally selling fake permits and assisting foreigners in killing non-legal animals. The person who was the victim of the scam should not be punished.


People need to sit back and think: What does going after this dentist, making him lose his practice and his source of income, do? Nothing. What would happen if the two guides were successfully thrown in jail? A couple of scam artists who were illegally killing animals would be locked up. They're the problem, not the hunter who got scammed.

He illegally bribed the guides to lure the animal out of the reserve so he could hunt it, he should be punished. And the dude is a trophy hunter so even if he wasn't the one who finished this lion off people still have plenty of reason to hate him. He is a part of the problem.

 

[Whispered]

He illegally bribed the guides to lure the animal out of the reserve so he could hunt it, he should be punished. And the dude is a trophy hunter so even if he wasn't the one who finished this lion off people still have plenty of reason to hate him. He is a part of the problem.

Source for that? He paid for what he believed was a legal hunting license, and trusted the guides to choose the legal animal for him to hunt.

The problem is the people who ignore the fact that without these millions of dollars going into the African reserves annually, these animals would already be extinct. It's really smart, when you look at it. Let an animal die naturally in a week, or sell the right to hunt it for hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund the reserves.

 

[Rose-Red]

Source for that? He paid for what he believed was a legal hunting license, and trusted the guides to choose the legal animal for him to hunt.

The problem is the people who ignore the fact that without these millions of dollars going into the African reserves annually, these animals would already be extinct. It's really smart, when you look at it. Let an animal die naturally in a week, or sell the right to hunt it for hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund the reserves.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...used-killing-cecil-lion-upset-hunter-zimbabwe

Yeah he did say he thought it was legal so maybe bribe wasn't the best word for what he did since we don't know for sure. But what he did was still illegal. Some quotes from the article above --

The charity’s chairman, Johnny Rodrigues, alleged that Palmer and professional hunter Theo Bronkhorst had gone hunting at night and tied a dead animal to their vehicle to lure Cecil out of Hwange national park.

“Palmer shot Cecil with a bow and arrow but this shot didn’t kill him,” he said. “They tracked him down and found him 40 hours later when they shot him with a gun. The hunters then found that the dead lion was wearing a tracking collar, which they unsuccessfully tried to hide.”

Emmanuel Fundira, president of the Safari Operators Association of Zimbabwe, called for Palmer to be prosecuted as a criminal. “Cecil was a collared lion, a protected species,” he said.

“The rules are clear in Zimbabwe that no protected lions should be hunted. The American members of our association are encouraged to conduct themselves in a way that is beyond reproach. We are using hunting as a conservation tool, but when the tool is abused in this way, it destroys the whole principle.”

He added: “The culprits should be brought to book and punished at the highest level. This is really reckless.”
​

Also reserves may sell permits to hunt their animals for a high price but the reserve that Cecil was from is expected to lose a lot of money now that he is gone since he was a huge draw, it talks about that in the article too.

 

[Whispered]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...used-killing-cecil-lion-upset-hunter-zimbabwe

Yeah he did say he thought it was legal so maybe bribe wasn't the best word for what he did since we don't know for sure. But what he did was still illegal. Some quotes from the article above --

The charity’s chairman, Johnny Rodrigues, alleged that Palmer and professional hunter Theo Bronkhorst had gone hunting at night and tied a dead animal to their vehicle to lure Cecil out of Hwange national park.

“Palmer shot Cecil with a bow and arrow but this shot didn’t kill him,” he said. “They tracked him down and found him 40 hours later when they shot him with a gun. The hunters then found that the dead lion was wearing a tracking collar, which they unsuccessfully tried to hide.”

Emmanuel Fundira, president of the Safari Operators Association of Zimbabwe, called for Palmer to be prosecuted as a criminal. “Cecil was a collared lion, a protected species,” he said.

“The rules are clear in Zimbabwe that no protected lions should be hunted. The American members of our association are encouraged to conduct themselves in a way that is beyond reproach. We are using hunting as a conservation tool, but when the tool is abused in this way, it destroys the whole principle.”

He added: “The culprits should be brought to book and punished at the highest level. This is really reckless.”
​

Also reserves may sell permits to hunt their animals for a high price but the reserve that Cecil was from is expected to lose a lot of money now that he is gone since he was a huge draw, it talks about that in the article too.

If a terrorist came to your house and told you that they'd kill you if you didn't kill your husband, and you kill your husband, are the authorities (and public) going to be mad at you, or the terrorists? It's the same thing - he got scammed. Please note that the guides committed much more crimes than Palmer himself

The guides lured an animal out of a protected sanctuary to hunt it, after having sold a fake hunting license to someone. Palmer didn't knowingly take part in anything illegal, once again, he was under the impression that this was as his previous hunting trips - legal and condoned by the state.

The tool was not abused by Palmer, it was abused by the guides who profited (50k!!!) by falsifying a permit.

Furthermore, Palmer didn't knowingly cause the death of Cecil himself, he thought he was killing a lion that was allowed to be hunted. Thus, the reserve should go after the guides that are 50k richer now, as they're the ones who caused any revenue loss.

 

[Rose-Red]

If a terrorist came to your house and told you that they'd kill you if you didn't kill your husband, and you kill your husband, are the authorities (and public) going to be mad at you, or the terrorists? It's the same thing - he got scammed. Please note that the guides committed much more crimes than Palmer himself

The guides lured an animal out of a protected sanctuary to hunt it, after having sold a fake hunting license to someone. Palmer didn't knowingly take part in anything illegal, once again, he was under the impression that this was as his previous hunting trips - legal and condoned by the state.

The tool was not abused by Palmer, it was abused by the guides who profited (50k!!!) by falsifying a permit.

Furthermore, Palmer didn't knowingly cause the death of Cecil himself, he thought he was killing a lion that was allowed to be hunted. Thus, the reserve should go after the guides that are 50k richer now, as they're the ones who caused any revenue loss.

That's a false equivalence. He still broke the law and he was not forced at gun point to kill the lion so it's not ridiculous to want him to be punished too.

 

[Whispered]

That's a false equivalence. He still broke the law and he was not forced at gun point to kill the lion so it's not ridiculous to want him to be punished too.

The reason it's ridiculous to want him to be punished is that it serves no purpose. He did not knowingly break the law, and upon finding out what had happened, he is offering his full cooperation with any investigations (even though he has not been contacted by either gov't), and remorseful that he killed the animal in question.

Honestly, this whole thing is typical of internet witchhunts - when they can't figure out exactly who to blame, they pick the first person they can think of, dogpile on them, ruin their reputation and their lives, and then when it becomes known that it really wasn't his fault, but the guides he hired, they don't admit they were wrong. I'm not calling out anyone in particular, just making an observation about social justice on the internet.

 

[Rose-Red]

The reason it's ridiculous to want him to be punished is that it serves no purpose. He did not knowingly break the law, and upon finding out what had happened, he is offering his full cooperation with any investigations (even though he has not been contacted by either gov't), and remorseful that he killed the animal in question.

Honestly, this whole thing is typical of internet witchhunts - when they can't figure out exactly who to blame, they pick the first person they can think of, dogpile on them, ruin their reputation and their lives, and then when it becomes known that it really wasn't his fault, but the guides he hired, they don't admit they were wrong. I'm not calling out anyone in particular, just making an observation about social justice on the internet.

It's no use arguing whether he should be punished if he really didn't know what he was doing was not legal since we won't agree but this article brought up some more interesting things imo: http://mic.com/articles/123212/zimb...cymicTBLR&utm_medium=main&utm_campaign=social

On Friday, Zimbabwe began the process of seeking the extradition of Walter Palmer, the 55-year-old American dentist who killed the country's beloved lion, Cecil. Oppah Muchinguri, Zimbabwe's environment, water and climate minister announced the move in a press conference Friday

Palmer allegedly bribed two wildlife guides upwards of $55,000 to help him lure Cecil out of the protective confines of Hwange National Park, first unsuccessfully attempting to kill the lion with a bow and arrow and then, 40 hours later, tracking Cecil down and shooting him.

Palmer and his two guides, who have already appeared in court, then skinned and beheaded the animal, leaving the carcass behind. They also attempted to destroy Cecil's GPS tracker, which was being used as part of an Oxford University study, to make it harder to identify the lion.

However, this is not the first time Palmer has broken the law while hunting. In 2006, he was charged with a felony after illegally killing a bear in Wisconsin and then lying about it.

Palmer is currently in hiding somewhere in the United States, and his exact whereabouts remains unknown.​

 

[Whispered]

@Rose-Red the issue I see here is that sources disagree on whether he attempted to destroy the GPS tracker. The way I interpret most of the sources is that the guides did that to attempt to cover their tracks and actions.

Furthermore, I'm not sure how much I'm inclined to trust the link you give, because it itself links to a CNN article that doesn't mention felony charges at all. He wasn't charged with any crime resulting from the killing of the bear, only making false statements, not even a felony according to CNN

A man by the same name and age, and from the same town, illegally killed a black bear in Wisconsin several years ago, according to court documents. That individual pleaded guilty to making a false statement

He knowingly made false statements to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and was sentenced to one year on probation and ordered to pay a fine of nearly $3,000, records show.

 

[Rose-Red]

@Rose-Red the issue I see here is that sources disagree on whether he attempted to destroy the GPS tracker. The way I interpret most of the sources is that the guides did that to attempt to cover their tracks and actions.

Furthermore, I'm not sure how much I'm inclined to trust the link you give, because it itself links to a CNN article that doesn't mention felony charges at all. He wasn't charged with any crime resulting from the killing of the bear, only making false statements, not even a felony according to CNN

I mean the reason I added that was because he lied to cover up his illegal hunting activities before, I don't really care about the details lol. I agree on the GPS thing, that is not clear anywhere I've read.

 

[Whispered]

I mean the reason I added that was because he lied to cover up his illegal hunting activities before, I don't really care about the details lol. I agree on the GPS thing, that is not clear anywhere I've read.

Nothing says he lied to cover up his illegal hunting though? It says he illegally killed a bear, and then made false statements to the Fish/Wildlife Service... It doesn't say they're related, much less that the lie was covering up anything.

Regardless, I don't think anyone should focus on him because putting him in jail will do nothing. Getting the people selling fake hunting licenses and/or luring prized illegal animals to be hunted off the street? That'd do lots.

 

[Rose-Red]

Nothing says he lied to cover up his illegal hunting though? It says he illegally killed a bear, and then made false statements to the Fish/Wildlife Service... It doesn't say they're related, much less that the lie was covering up anything.

I was assuming the false statements had to do with his illegal hunting?? It seems pretty clear to me they had to do with that incident, why would u think otherwise?

 

[Captain-Heather]

Why don't we leave determining guilt of this particular man up to the court of law? And instead, maybe talk about the practicality or legality of hunting animals for sport. Getting into the details of a case like Cecil the Lion is going to be pretty difficult to prove anything from the limited resources of the internet without first hand knowledge/evidence. I know @PIGGIESARECOOL posted the original topic mostly about Cecil, but seeing what people have said so far, this seems like an illogical thing to debate. Just not enough facts to "accurately" debate something from either point of view.

So perhaps from here out, you can use cases like Cecil's to support your argument, but debate the whole trophy hunting topic (or even hunting in general) instead.

Thanks guys!

 

[Zelena]

If Palmer was so experienced in trophy hunting you would have thought he would know if he was illegally poaching or not. It seems this trophy hunting dentist doesnt fully care about the rules if he's willing to not look into if his guides were legit and willing to fake where he hunted a bear.

i read a few articles where the zimbabwe government want palmer charged to the fullest extent. His guides were already charged and one i believe is out on a $1,000 bail to later return to court.

In my opinion trophy hunting is disgusting of any sort. Many people hunt for food and trophy hunters give hunting a bad name.

 

[Megara]

I'm not a fan of hunting for sport. I understand doing it to protect farms, or for food, but hunting for sport and just for a trophy is something I don't think I'd ever understand. I'm obviously not a fan with what happened to Cecil.

 

[ravenmchomie]

I guess I personally am confused how hunting any animal ya know just taking a life away would be fun... Me being my little vegan self makes me biast a bit but i dont believe in hunting period.

 

[mark]

as sad as this is, over 250,000 Syrians were murdered (and still are, daily) and you don't see that on the news as much as this. I love animals but this is being treated more important than hundreds of thousands of human lives.

 

[CoralHibiscus]

I've never understood trophy hunting. I can understand hunting for food or protecting a farm since humans have been doing that for centuries. I always get creeped out when I go somewhere that has deer heads or other taxidermied animals. I prefer seeing animals living and breathing.