transgender rights

[gravebound]

for those of you who don't know, transgender people are people that don't agree with what the doctor declared them to be. for example, a person is born with what's considered typical "male" plumbing, but when that person grows up(or even before), they discover they feel, identify, and are female(or no gender at all, which is a possibility).
transphobia is very real, especially with non-white transgender people. many trans people are kicked out of their homes by parents, fired at jobs or refused service, forced upon as a means to "fix" them, or even killed.
many anti-discriminatory laws do not include transgender people, making it entirely legal to fire someone based on them not agreeing with what they were assigned. transgender people are constantly being excluded from LGBTQ+ communities and erased from the movement(as well as bisexuals, pansexuals, and asexuals) with the increasingly common term "gay and lesbian". they are also even usually denied the right to use the bathroom they feel most comfortable using. (please do not bring up "men wearing dresses to get into the bathroom to assault women" up, not only is this untrue but a trans woman is not a man in a dress)
transgender people may opt to physically transition, ie hormone replacement therapy, chest surgery, or bottom surgery. some may not. some may not be able to because of therapy and surgery are not usually covered by insurance and are incredibly expensive.

as a trans man myself, i of course fully support transgender rights.

 

[Whispered]

A bathroom, no pun intended, is meant for the "plumbing" typically associated with gender. You're confounding the aspects of sex and gender - sex is your plumbing, gender is mental/social. Bathrooms are based on sex - not on gender.

On the subject of things that are gender-discriminated today, there shouldn't be any. However, saying "because you have 'male plumbing' you can't do this thing that's typically only restricted to men because you were born a female but identify as male" isn't necessarily bad - if the underlying reason is legitimately someone's sex not their gender.

 

[Safe]

A bathroom, no pun intended, is meant for the "plumbing" typically associated with gender. You're confounding the aspects of sex and gender - sex is your plumbing, gender is mental/social. Bathrooms are based on sex - not on gender.

Bathrooms are definitely not based only on sex -- maybe in an ideal world they would be, but in the real world there's a huge social component to public restrooms (and, as you said, gender is social). If this isn't evident in your own life, it's because you have the privilege of passing as the gender you are, and thus not experiencing uncomfortable stares or outright harassment in public restrooms.

 

[Whispered]

Bathrooms are definitely not based only on sex -- maybe in an ideal world they would be, but in the real world there's a huge social component to public restrooms (and, as you said, gender is social). If this isn't evident in your own life, it's because you have the privilege of passing as the gender you are, and thus not experiencing uncomfortable stares or outright harassment in public restrooms.

I thought we were hypothesizing about "in an ideal world" in this discussion. The OP states that they believe (not an exact quote) that people should be able to choose their bathroom [in an ideal world]. As such, I pointed out that, in an ideal world, bathrooms would be based on sex, not on gender.

Experiencing uncomfortable stares/harassment in public restrooms is to be expected if you are using the restroom opposite your current sex. Nothing social about it - if you have male plumbing, you'll get stares for going into a female restroom, and vice versa. Honestly, I don't know what social component you refer to in public restrooms nowadays. To me, it appears (at least for males) to be get in, do your business, and get out. The layout of restrooms is also different based on *sex* - different plumbing can use different plumbing.

You can't just change your sex at your whim, whereas you can decide you identify more with the social stereotypes surrounding gender. For the record, I disagree with gender completely - there's not really much reason to have things based on "well, you act like the way people with this type of plumbing have for the past 1000+ years, so we're going to stereotype you like that". However, as said before, there's no reason not to make certain choices based on sex - as sex actually does impact more than just your relationships with others (think hormones, physique, etc. Obviously all of that can be changed through sex change, but once again, that's sex change, not gender change).

 

[Safe]

I thought we were hypothesizing about "in an ideal world" in this discussion. The OP states that they believe (not an exact quote) that people should be able to choose their bathroom [in an ideal world]. As such, I pointed out that, in an ideal world, bathrooms would be based on sex, not on gender.

The difference between his and your ideal worlds is that his ideal world is possible -- policies can be put in place ensuring trans people the right to use the bathroom they feel comfortable with. Your ideal world isn't really attainable, since gender isn't going to stop being a meaningful social category anytime soon, so it isn't really relevant to a discussion about trans rights.

Experiencing uncomfortable stares/harassment in public restrooms is to be expected if you are using the restroom opposite your current sex. Nothing social about it - if you have male plumbing, you'll get stares for going into a female restroom, and vice versa. Honestly, I don't know what social component you refer to in public restrooms nowadays. To me, it appears (at least for males) to be get in, do your business, and get out. The layout of restrooms is also different based on *sex* - different plumbing can use different plumbing.

Harassment in bathrooms is something that many trans people can and often do expect, but really -- harassment of any type just for going through your daily life isn't something that anyone should have to expect. We're never going to have 100% of people being totally fine with trans people, but that doesn't mean that we should just tacitly accept that harassment happens; we should have policies that work to reduce it. When harassment happens, it should be something that's shocking, not something that we accept as an everyday occurrence.

I'd argue the opposite -- bathroom harassment has more to do with gender than with sex. Unless someone is already unclothed when they're walking into a bathroom, nobody actually knows what "plumbing" that person has. They just assume based on a person's gender presentation -- that's a social judgment.

I'm pretty sure all restrooms have toilets, and I'm pretty sure everyone can use a toilet, so...

You can't just change your sex at your whim, whereas you can decide you identify more with the social stereotypes surrounding gender. For the record, I disagree with gender completely - there's not really much reason to have things based on "well, you act like the way people with this type of plumbing have for the past 1000+ years, so we're going to stereotype you like that". However, as said before, there's no reason not to make certain choices based on sex - as sex actually does impact more than just your relationships with others (think hormones, physique, etc. Obviously all of that can be changed through sex change, but once again, that's sex change, not gender change).

You might disagree with the concept of gender, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a thing that exists that has strong influences in individuals' lives and throughout society. Obviously sex is a factor in some of the decisions people make in life, but, as I've argued, it plays less of a role than gender in regards to public restrooms.

 

[Whispered]

If a person whose sex is male chooses to dress as a woman and go into a male restroom, they should expect to be harassed.

If a person who is in the process of getting a sex change from male -> female chooses to dress as a woman and go into a female restroom, they likely would not be met with any harassment - as everyone should see them as female.

You're saying that the small number of pre-transsexual, but transgender, persons who feel intimidated having to choose a bathroom should make many others (not myself, but others) feel uncomfortable in the restroom? By your virtue, a male -> female transgender who had not begun a sex change regiment would likely both be harassed, and make others feel uncomfortable, as their original sex is still visible in multiple ways (physical). In what situation is that a winning situation? This brings up the question of those who are in the middle of certain treatments, like hormone therapy - when do they truly "change sex"? Is it surgery? Is it physique? That's a question that has to be taken into account locally - based on the feelings of the general public, who will be the majority of those using the public restrooms.

No amount of laws saying "you can choose your bathroom" will eliminate the harassment - be it harassment for using the bathroom of your choice when you look like another sex, or using the bathroom of your sex when you choose to dress like the other. The fact that some think that "solving" (but not really) the harassment for these people will actually solve the harassment, and make for a more comfortable general public just goes to show the amount of thought some place into this issue - surface-level "please the minority, don't worry about what will happen after this 'looks good on paper' law goes into place".

 

[Heidi]

I am a pansexual female and I completely support equal rights of all genders, sexes, and sexualities.

I understand that not everyone feels this way and there's no way to completely erase transphobia... As far as restrooms go, I personally do not see how a transgender person in their gender-preferred bathroom would be a problem, pre- or post-op/HRT. Even if a person "looks" a certain way, unless you see them unclothed, you can't be certain which sex they are. Starting a scuffle because of a person one THINKS is a different sex is just crazy to me. There are plenty of cisgender females that have male qualities and the opposite is true as well...

I totally get both sides of the argument and I can understand that people DO get harassed, it's just so hard for me to fathom why. People never cease to disgust me.

 

[Safe]

If a person whose sex is male chooses to dress as a woman and go into a male restroom, they should expect to be harassed.

If a person who is in the process of getting a sex change from male -> female chooses to dress as a woman and go into a female restroom, they likely would not be met with any harassment - as everyone should see them as female.

I would expect someone who identifies as a woman to want to use the ladies' room. If you're saying a woman shouldn't go into a men's room and expect everything to be okay, but should be able to go into a ladies' room with no problem, I agree with that.

You're saying that the small number of pre-transsexual, but transgender, persons who feel intimidated having to choose a bathroom should make many others (not myself, but others) feel uncomfortable in the restroom? By your virtue, a male -> female transgender who had not begun a sex change regiment would likely both be harassed, and make others feel uncomfortable, as their original sex is still visible in multiple ways (physical). In what situation is that a winning situation? This brings up the question of those who are in the middle of certain treatments, like hormone therapy - when do they truly "change sex"? Is it surgery? Is it physique? That's a question that has to be taken into account locally - based on the feelings of the general public, who will be the majority of those using the public restrooms.

Often it's not a choice between a trans person feeling uncomfortable vs. other people in the bathroom feeling uncomfortable, but between a trans person being harassed (sometimes violently) vs. other people feeling uncomfortable.

Of course none of that is a winning situation. I do think that trans people should have the right to use the bathroom they feel comfortable in, but in practice I think that trans people who are nervous about harassment tend to avoid using public restrooms whenever possible, and even with a policy in place they would still avoid it until they're confident they can use a public restroom without making others uncomfortable. In my opinion, the best solution would be to both have a policy that trans people can choose the bathroom they feel comfortable in and to have gender-neutral restrooms available.

I think the question of when someone "changes sex" is something that's up to the individual and irrelevant to the current discussion. Again, since most of us are walking around with clothes on, the judgments we're making about other people are based on gender, not sex.

No amount of laws saying "you can choose your bathroom" will eliminate the harassment - be it harassment for using the bathroom of your choice when you look like another sex, or using the bathroom of your sex when you choose to dress like the other. The fact that some think that "solving" (but not really) the harassment for these people will actually solve the harassment, and make for a more comfortable general public just goes to show the amount of thought some place into this issue - surface-level "please the minority, don't worry about what will happen after this 'looks good on paper' law goes into place".

Obviously harassment will never be eliminated. As I said before, people tend to avoid situations in which they think they might be harassed anyway, but for those times when using a public restroom is their only option, I think that allowing them to choose for themselves what is the lesser of two evils only makes sense.

 

[Whispered]

I am a pansexual female and I completely support equal rights of all genders, sexes, and sexualities.

I understand that not everyone feels this way and there's no way to completely erase transphobia... As far as restrooms go, I personally do not see how a transgender person in their gender-preferred bathroom would be a problem, pre- or post-op/HRT. Even if a person "looks" a certain way, unless you see them unclothed, you can't be certain which sex they are. Starting a scuffle because of a person one THINKS is a different sex is just crazy to me. There are plenty of cisgender females that have male qualities and the opposite is true as well...

I totally get both sides of the argument and I can understand that people DO get harassed, it's just so hard for me to fathom why. People never cease to disgust me.

That's a societal thing that needs to be fixed BEFORE any sort of law regarding transgender-rights in the bathrooms is passed.

 

[Kirito]

i honestly don't understand why people are transgender, i dont mean to offend anyone, but it doesnt make sense to me personally. Correct me if I'm wrong but to me it looks like people don't want to be their stereotypical gender, example is a guy who doesnt like things that are considered to be for guys, like clothes or hobbies, because those things are stereotypical for guys to like. To me, gender is nothing more than what your body is like. Anyone should be able to do what they want without being judged, although thats nearly impossible in today's society. My guess is that people want to be a transgender so that they can do things that doesn't stereotypically match what they are? Just a bit confused

 

[gravebound]

i honestly don't understand why people are transgender, i dont mean to offend anyone, but it doesnt make sense to me personally. Correct me if I'm wrong but to me it looks like people don't want to be their stereotypical gender, example is a guy who doesnt like things that are considered to be for guys, like clothes or hobbies, because those things are stereotypical for guys to like. To me, gender is nothing more than what your body is like. Anyone should be able to do what they want without being judged, although thats nearly impossible in today's society. My guess is that people want to be a transgender so that they can do things that doesn't stereotypically match what they are? Just a bit confused

that's not it at all, friend!
gender(or lack of one) is a significant part of identity of most. it's got nothing to do with stereotypes, as there are people who agree with their birth gender who act and like things of what's considered typical for the other gender, and trans people can act and have hobbies corresponding to what's considered typical for another as well.
for example, i fully identify as a man, but i, along with many other men, both trans and cis, do things and like some things typically associated with women sometimes. because what's considered masculinity and femininity is subjective, and everyone, no matter what, has a mix of both traits, however uneven they may be sometimes.
a good way to look at it: imagine you wake up one morning. everyone is referring to you as a girl all of a sudden, like it's no big deal. would it throw you off? what if you had a body like what's considered female? would you still feel the male identity you've been with your whole life?
that's what it feels like to be transgender. and if you don't think it would throw you off, that's great - but for a lot of people, it would.
gender has nothing more to do with your body than a band you like does. it's just a part of you, a role that you feel placed in, comfortable in. and for some people, it just doesn't match up with what they were raised to be.

 

[Kirito]

that's not it at all, friend!
gender(or lack of one) is a significant part of identity of most. it's got nothing to do with stereotypes, as there are people who agree with their birth gender who act and like things of what's considered typical for the other gender, and trans people can act and have hobbies corresponding to what's considered typical for another as well.
for example, i fully identify as a man, but i, along with many other men, both trans and cis, do things and like some things typically associated with women sometimes. because what's considered masculinity and femininity is subjective, and everyone, no matter what, has a mix of both traits, however uneven they may be sometimes.
a good way to look at it: imagine you wake up one morning. everyone is referring to you as a girl all of a sudden, like it's no big deal. would it throw you off? what if you had a body like what's considered female? would you still feel the male identity you've been with your whole life?
that's what it feels like to be transgender. and if you don't think it would throw you off, that's great - but for a lot of people, it would.
gender has nothing more to do with your body than a band you like does. it's just a part of you, a role that you feel placed in, comfortable in. and for some people, it just doesn't match up with what they were raised to be.

okay thanks for explaining it, it makes a lot more sense now

 

[Whispered]

that's not it at all, friend!
gender(or lack of one) is a significant part of identity of most. it's got nothing to do with stereotypes, as there are people who agree with their birth gender who act and like things of what's considered typical for the other gender, and trans people can act and have hobbies corresponding to what's considered typical for another as well.
for example, i fully identify as a man, but i, along with many other men, both trans and cis, do things and like some things typically associated with women sometimes. because what's considered masculinity and femininity is subjective, and everyone, no matter what, has a mix of both traits, however uneven they may be sometimes.
a good way to look at it: imagine you wake up one morning. everyone is referring to you as a girl all of a sudden, like it's no big deal. would it throw you off? what if you had a body like what's considered female? would you still feel the male identity you've been with your whole life?
that's what it feels like to be transgender. and if you don't think it would throw you off, that's great - but for a lot of people, it would.
gender has nothing more to do with your body than a band you like does. it's just a part of you, a role that you feel placed in, comfortable in. and for some people, it just doesn't match up with what they were raised to be.

You are not born with gender, it is forced upon you by societal stereotypes. You are born with sex, which is completely and utterly different. It just so happens that society has associated a certain "gender" sterotype with one sex, and one with the other. As you say yourself, it's uneven, subjective, and fluid.

Gender is at its simplest form a stereotype. Please stop confounding it with physical sex. "What's considered female" in a body is not "considered" female - a vast majority of the time, a persons physical body, or if not that then their genetics, determine their sex, not their gender.

People who advocate for "transgender rights" should rather advocate for the abolition of gender stereotypes altogether. Let people do what they want and are physically, mentally, and altogether capable of, regardless of their sex. Honestly when people advocate for transgender rights instead of the abolition of gender-based stereotypes, it sounds like they're taking a narrower route just to use terms that would anger the opposing side.

 

[Jasmine]

You are not born with gender, it is forced upon you by societal stereotypes. You are born with sex, which is completely and utterly different. It just so happens that society has associated a certain "gender" sterotype with one sex, and one with the other. As you say yourself, it's uneven, subjective, and fluid.

Gender is at its simplest form a stereotype. Please stop confounding it with physical sex. "What's considered female" in a body is not "considered" female - a vast majority of the time, a persons physical body, or if not that then their genetics, determine their sex, not their gender.

People who advocate for "transgender rights" should rather advocate for the abolition of gender stereotypes altogether. Let people do what they want and are physically, mentally, and altogether capable of, regardless of their sex. Honestly when people advocate for transgender rights instead of the abolition of gender-based stereotypes, it sounds like they're taking a narrower route just to use terms that would anger the opposing side.

Actually, no, not really. The debate over whether gender and sex are separate is a debate simply because it's highly subjective. It's nothing that can be proven scientifically (because what is "sex"? What is "gender"? And how could a definition for these two terms be made up so that a majority of people agree with it and see it as a fact?), so therefore, anyone's opinion about that subject is only that, an opinion. It's not a fact, so it can't be stated as one. (Meaning you can't say for sure, and you can only say it as your own opinion, that "You are not born with gender, it is forced upon you by societal stereotypes.")

For example, since this whole debate is subjective, I could use this definition of gender to try to prove my point that you are born with a gender (and no, I'm not saying that's my stance on the topic - it's just an example):

the public image of being male or female that a person presents to others.

So by that definition, a person very well could be born with a gender.
However, you could counter with another definition:

The state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).

So as you can see, it's the definitions of these words that cause the debate itself. Everyone isn't going to agree about the definitions of these terms because none of what's being defined can be proven. (For example, you can't use experimental research methods to try to answer the question.) It's important to keep in mind the difference between an opinion or a theory (especially since most people without a scientific background use a different definition of theory than scientists do) and a fact. People seem to confuse them too often.

It's also important to note that the words are often used as synonyms as well. (If you google gender right now, you'll see that. And you're also not taking in account the fact that people don't say "I'm asexual", when they mean that they're agender or something else, like bigender. Aseuxality (and sexuality in general) is completely different from being agender (and gender in general). That might be part of the reason why the terms are used interchangeably - because using "sex" with a different definition might lead to confusion about the definition of the term sexuality.) So in gravebound's case, I think that's what he was doing. The problem is that even the definitions themselves are subjective. Though the consensus among scientists may be that there's a difference between sex and gender (and I'm not saying it is because I have no empirical evidence to base this on - so yet again, this is just an example), that doesn't mean that all scientists will agree. So I suppose topics like this (along with evolution and natural selection, nature vs. nurture, etc...) will be debated until the world ends.

I'll leave you with this quote from Richard Lippa:

Some researchers have argued that the word sex should be used to refer to (biological differences), whereas the word gender should be used to refer to (cultural differences). However, it is not at all clear the degree to which the differences between males and females are due to biological factors versus learned and cultural factors. Furthermore, indiscriminate use of the word gender tends to obscure the distinction between two different topics: (a) differences between males and females, and (b) individual differences in maleness and femaleness that occur within each sex.

Researchers don't have to "argue" over facts. (And some feminists say that neither term accurately describes the differences found between males and females and advocate completely new ones. That just shows you exactly how subjective all of this is.) However, the good news is that psychologists (probably mainly sociocultural and evolutionary psychologists) are likely to be studying this topic more. I assume other types of researchers, such as anthropologists, will too. (I personally don't think they'll find anything definitive though.)

Anyways, I've always had an interest in the the topic of transgender from a very young age, but I have to admit I don't know much about transgender rights, so perhaps someone could enlighten me on that?

 

[gravebound]

You are not born with gender, it is forced upon you by societal stereotypes. You are born with sex, which is completely and utterly different. It just so happens that society has associated a certain "gender" sterotype with one sex, and one with the other. As you say yourself, it's uneven, subjective, and fluid.

Gender is at its simplest form a stereotype. Please stop confounding it with physical sex. "What's considered female" in a body is not "considered" female - a vast majority of the time, a persons physical body, or if not that then their genetics, determine their sex, not their gender.

People who advocate for "transgender rights" should rather advocate for the abolition of gender stereotypes altogether. Let people do what they want and are physically, mentally, and altogether capable of, regardless of their sex. Honestly when people advocate for transgender rights instead of the abolition of gender-based stereotypes, it sounds like they're taking a narrower route just to use terms that would anger the opposing side.

except i agree with you on both main points?
what i meant that you're getting as "born as a gender" or "what's considered" is what's declared and written down at birth, ie, if you're born with a certain part everyone refers to you as "boy" or "girl". boy/girl =/= sex. sex and gender are two complete different, separate concepts. both are spectrums that do(and socially should) exist separate from each other.
i disagree with the opinion that gender is a stereotype. i still stand by it being a part of your identity. yes, it's socially constructed, but that doesn't mean it isn't important to some people(medicine is also socially constructed, for example)
yes, i think stereotypes about gender should be abolished(not in the same way you do, as you've mentioned you think gender itself is a stereotype, and while i can understand your viewpoint, i don't agree with it), but transgender people are not doing that just to anger the other side? it's not a choice, trust me.
again, though, i understand your side. besides, there's plenty of people who don't have a gender or don't think it should be a thing, and that's fine. but that doesn't mean people that do(and do so without being harmful to others based on gender) and doesn't mean those people deserve the basic protection that others do.
and at the end of the day, while the bathroom issue is important, and i still fully advocate for one universal bathroom, that's the least of the issue. when i say transgender rights, i mean there should be laws - just like there is protecting individuals of gender(cis), racial, sexuality discrimination - to protect against discrimination. just because you don't agree with someone's view on identity, especially their own, doesn't mean that person deserves to lose their job or be denied housing because of that identity, and that's my point here.

 

[Jasmine]

when i say transgender rights, i mean there should be laws - just like there is protecting individuals of gender(cis), racial, sexuality discrimination - to protect against discrimination. just because you don't agree with someone's view on identity, especially their own, doesn't mean that person deserves to lose their job or be denied housing because of that identity, and that's my point here.

Oh okay, well in that case, then I definitely agree. But with gay rights and equality and all that really just beginning (at least IMO), I see laws against discrimination of transgender people of taking a little while.

 

[gravebound]

Oh okay, well in that case, then I definitely agree. But with gay rights and equality and all that really just beginning (at least IMO), I see laws against discrimination of transgender people of taking a little while.

you're right, sadly. it sucks because protection should come first, but people are more obsessed with the trendy idea of marriage and not wanting to stand for the "icky" side, too.

 

[Whispered]

you're right, sadly. it sucks because protection should come first, but people are more obsessed with the trendy idea of marriage and not wanting to stand for the "icky" side, too.

Sadly you have to draw a line somewhere between what is and is not discrimination. Would you say that an employer firing an employee who can't carry heavy things in a job in which it's required would be discriminating against people who aren't as strong as others through no fault of their own?

Capitalism works by forcing businesses who don't conform to a basic standard of dignity out of business. There's no reason a business should be forced to hire/avoid firing someone based on anything other than the most basic - sex, race, age, nationality, religion, etc. If people were to boycott businesses who do things they don't agree with, instead of Big Brother Government stepping in every 5 seconds, our economy would be much better, with more competition, and lower prices, as well as better working conditions, better chances for employment and promotion, etc.

 

[gravebound]

Sadly you have to draw a line somewhere between what is and is not discrimination. Would you say that an employer firing an employee who can't carry heavy things in a job in which it's required would be discriminating against people who aren't as strong as others through no fault of their own?

except, there's a huge difference between avoid hiring/firing someone not fit for the job that's say, female or black(or both), and avoid hiring/firing because they're female and/or black.
there is a line on what is discrimination and what isn't. that's not the issue. the issue, again, is people discriminating regardless, and people are suffering because of it.

 

[Lost]

Sadly you have to draw a line somewhere between what is and is not discrimination. Would you say that an employer firing an employee who can't carry heavy things in a job in which it's required would be discriminating against people who aren't as strong as others through no fault of their own?

Why would an employer hire someone who can't do the job they are hiring for? x_x That isn't discrimination.

Also discrimination tends to be firing someone or not hiring someone who can actually do the job based on traits they can't change i.e. age, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. Firing someone who can do they job as well as others, based on a feature that is impossible to change is discrimination. Even if we looked at your analogy then there is no discrimination as A) They wouldn't hire someone unfit for the job B) Discrimination is firing/ not hiring based on a trait about them over whether they can do the job C) Physical strength can be altered by practically everyone and if they can't alter their strength then applying for a job where part of it is heavy lifting is illogical. Ageism is a big problem but the problem is where the person CAN do the job and is not hired based on age and NOT where the person CANT do the job and isn't hired. There is a difference between hiring the right people and not hiring people based on discrimination.

Anyway.. I hate discrimination and only recently has transgender rights started to become a mainstream topic. For example, Laverne Cox has gained a lot of notoriety as of late and has started to pave the way to opening up transgender as a topic in the public eye.

I think we're in the period where a lot is happening with discrimination and we don't really see it because we want it all to happen now. We are entering an era where gay people are being represented in laws and media whereas in the UK not so many years ago being gay was illegal, now there are rights, marriage, more equality. It's a slow process. The black civil rights moment has still not eradicated racism, not by a long way, but it paved the way for equality, it's just a way slow process. I doubt we will see true equality in any of our lifetimes, but we just need to keep making steps towards it.