Wealth Inequality in America

[LooseSeal]

Almost all of these other nations have higher tax rates than the US, are in more debt than the US (to the point of going bankrupt in the most serious of cases), and have a plethora of other problems. They also run their systems much better than we do here in the US.

However, you say a "livable wage" should be a right - but that's just not, frankly, possible in our current economic world (or any viable one for that matter). If everyone started making, say $15 dollars/hr as fast food workers want, what would happen? Well, restaurants would suddenly be paying 1 person what they used to pay 2. So one of two things will happen (or more likely, a combination of both) - they'll raise prices, or they'll lay people off. If they raise prices, they'll have to raise them by about or more than what the wages were raised by. So you just end up with higher cost products - sure the people are making more money, but the value of 1 dollar went down because the cost of products/services went up. So in effect, if you increase minimum wage, you also increase living wage, and you can never achieve (through strict regulation/laws alone) a minimum+living wage combined.

btw I agree with the two italicized statements you made ---so i just realized the whole darn quote becomes italicized. i bolded them instead oopsie.

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Sorry I can't respond to more, there's so much and it'd be nitpicking. But to "You spend your entire life healing people." - No. You spend your entire life fighting insurance companies to even make 80 cents on the dollar for what you need to break even for your equipment and time. You spend your days overbooked because of the way you have to schedule. You spend every day afraid the next patient you see may bring a lawsuit that you have to spend money to fight - just because you did everything you could to help them and they weren't satisfied. Being a doctor is not an easy job, and I'd go so far as to say in today's world it's a pretty horrible one to have, sadly.

Didn't stop me from making it my career choice though (for other reasons though, I'm going into pediatric neurosurgery hopefully)

I'm really not qualified to speak on economics, but I believe that raising wages would help bolster the economy seeing as people would be able to purchase more goods and there would be less reliance on government programs like welfare. History shows us that policies focusing on trickle-down economics are fairly ineffective, though.

I agree with your statement about how many countries have better-run systems than the U.S. Take healthcare, for instance. The reason why U.S. healthcare spending is so high (~18% GDP compared to ~9% OECD average) is precisely because of the system, which is highly complex and characterized by high administrative costs and poorer health outcomes. A fairly large portion of each healthcare dollar goes towards administrative costs due to the immense labyrinth of private insurance. When you compare the US healthcare system to countries like the UK, where healthcare is guaranteed and universal, you can really see the flaws in the US system. In these countries, medical bankruptcy is unheard of, doctors don't have to pay upwards of $800k for their education and worry about malpractice suits, and all costs and fees are reasonable and highly transparent. Meanwhile, in the US thousands of people go bankrupt due to medical fees each year, procedures and drugs are highly marked up, and the overall system is motivated by profit. Sure, the NHS has some flaws, but there is a very good reason why the UK takes such pride in it -- it's simple and effective. Costs and procedures are highly regulated through NICE whereas in the US, Medicare can't even fight pharmaceutical companies to lower costs. Doctors in the UK are paid less, but they pay far less for medical school and malpractice insurance and PCPs are paid on a per-patient rather than fee-for-service basis, meaning that preventive care is emphasized as doctors are encouraged to keep patients healthy.

Totally went off-topic there, but healthcare is really something I'm interested in. If you want to learn more about other national systems of healthcare, I highly recommend you read The Healing of America by T.R. Reid.

Survival of the fittest, is all I can say at this point. May be sad, but true


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Are you familiar with social darwinism? Y'know, the school of thought used to justify things like racism?

 

[Whispered]

I'm really not qualified to speak on economics, but I believe that raising wages would help bolster the economy seeing as people would be able to purchase more goods and there would be less reliance on government programs like welfare. History shows us that policies focusing on trickle-down economics are fairly ineffective, though.

I agree with your statement about how many countries have better-run systems than the U.S. Take healthcare, for instance. The reason why U.S. healthcare spending is so high (~18% GDP compared to ~9% OECD average) is precisely because of the system, which is highly complex and characterized by high administrative costs and poorer health outcomes. A fairly large portion of each healthcare dollar goes towards administrative costs due to the immense labyrinth of private insurance. When you compare the US healthcare system to countries like the UK, where healthcare is guaranteed and universal, you can really see the flaws in the US system. In these countries, medical bankruptcy is unheard of, doctors don't have to pay upwards of $800k for their education and worry about malpractice suits, and all costs and fees are reasonable and highly transparent. Meanwhile, in the US thousands of people go bankrupt due to medical fees each year, procedures and drugs are highly marked up, and the overall system is motivated by profit. Sure, the NHS has some flaws, but there is a very good reason why the UK takes such pride in it -- it's simple and effective. Costs and procedures are highly regulated through NICE whereas in the US, Medicare can't even fight pharmaceutical companies to lower costs. Doctors in the UK are paid less, but they pay far less for medical school and malpractice insurance and PCPs are paid on a per-patient rather than fee-for-service basis, meaning that preventive care is emphasized as doctors are encouraged to keep patients healthy.

Totally went off-topic there, but healthcare is really something I'm interested in. If you want to learn more about other national systems of healthcare, I highly recommend you read The Healing of America by T.R. Reid.




Are you familiar with social darwinism? Y'know, the school of thought used to justify things like racism?

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so. uh. you say that it'll allow people to buy more products.

but when you raise wages, who pays the extra wages? especially if you try to raise it to 15+ an hour, what people want?

the answer is - the company raises prices to cover the wages. once the cascade finishes, you end up with people making more money, but costs have increased by a proportional amount, so it's as if they still make the money they did before, it's just each dollar is worth less.

 

[mark]

Isn't this communisim? What's yours is mine and what's mine is th government

 

[allison]

Sad and untrue.



We're all human; we're in this together. The "fittest," in many cases, are the people born into socio-economic status. It's unfair, and it's unnecessary to practice social Darwinism in a civilized society of our caliber. We're more than capable of providing an adequate standard of living for everyone.

I believe in hard work to climb up the ladder. You may believe that people are entitled to stuff, which is untrue. People are NOT entitled to every government handout. And I don't mean through minimum wage jobs. Maybe at first, but minimum wage jobs are not meant to be a career. I believe in welfare strictly for people to get back on their feet and nothing else (no obama phones that is ridiculous cell phones are luxury items). Honestly, it all comes down to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. You need to be able to take care of yourself.


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[Thrill]

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so. uh. you say that it'll allow people to buy more products.

but when you raise wages, who pays the extra wages? especially if you try to raise it to 15+ an hour, what people want?

the answer is - the company raises prices to cover the wages. once the cascade finishes, you end up with people making more money, but costs have increased by a proportional amount, so it's as if they still make the money they did before, it's just each dollar is worth less.

Admittedly, take economic studies with a grain of salt, but supposedly a minimum wage increase to $10 would raise the price of DVDs at Wal-Mart noticeably. A whole penny increase.

Isn't this communisim? What's yours is mine and what's mine is th government

Communism is classless, moneyless, and stateless.

 

[LooseSeal]

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so. uh. you say that it'll allow people to buy more products.

but when you raise wages, who pays the extra wages? especially if you try to raise it to 15+ an hour, what people want?

the answer is - the company raises prices to cover the wages. once the cascade finishes, you end up with people making more money, but costs have increased by a proportional amount, so it's as if they still make the money they did before, it's just each dollar is worth less.

The thing is, corporations are actually growing in productivity, but the increases in productivity aren't going towards the workers. These businesses can very well afford to raise wages, but choose not to so that their workers instead have to rely on government assistance. Going back to healthcare (just took a midterm on this stuff, so it's still pretty fresh in my mind haha), Walmart is actually cutting employee hours so that they will not have to cover employee health insurance, and these employees will instead have to be covered by the Medicaid expansion under the ACA.

Edit: Another graph which really illustrates this point:

And more, because yay pictures

Spoiler

 

[allison]

What i love is how people demonize large corporations, yet support those same corporations by buying iPhones and macs and pcs and starbucks LOL


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[Whispered]

Admittedly, take economic studies with a grain of salt, but supposedly a minimum wage increase to $10 would raise the price of DVDs at Wal-Mart noticeably. A whole penny increase.

Yes, because I'm talking about the price of DVDs and not the price of food, and basic goods like that.

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Also, a lot of this new "productivity" actually goes directly to paying for government regulations/social needs - such as taking pink slime out of meat, etc.

Furthermore, a doubling of the wage is the equivalent of doubling the amount of employees a corporation has. For WalMart, with 1.4 million employees, it's like they now have 2.8 million. That's not easy to pay for, and no, they don't just have pools of money sitting around. They're constantly faced with lawsuits (that get dismissed before media hear about them, but they have to pay for defense anyway to get them dismissed), people complaining and damage control, etc, even when they do everything they can for people.

Corporations are not "greedy" and they do not just have money trees sitting around. That's an invention of liberals to justify their beliefs on corporations being bad (kinda how like "Keep your doctor!" and "Everyone'll be insured!" were with Obamacare.. oh wait, people lost their doctors, and the amount of cancellations was well more than the number of new insured... hmm..)

 

[allison]

Honestly, people asking for 15 dollars an hour is RIDICULOUS. You know why?? Number one, it causes MAJOR inflation, don't even TRY and deny that FACT, and secondly, what if they do get it?? Then they're going to act like the sky is the limit and ask for 20, 25 and so on.


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[Thrill]

I believe in hard work to climb up the ladder. You may believe that people are entitled to stuff, which is untrue. People are NOT entitled to every government handout. And I don't mean through minimum wage jobs. Maybe at first, but minimum wage jobs are not meant to be a career. I believe in welfare strictly for people to get back on their feet and nothing else (no obama phones that is ridiculous cell phones are luxury items). Honestly, it all comes down to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. You need to be able to take care of yourself.

And the government needs to give people the adequate basics for people to be able to take care of themselves. Do a little research and find out how impossible it is for a homeless person to secure a job. Kinda hard to put an address down on a resume when you don't have one.

What i love is how people demonize large corporations, yet support those same corporations by buying iPhones and macs and pcs and starbucks LOL

It's hard to avoid corporations, but these named are among the least terrible corporations. Starbucks is particularly reasonable. If I recall correctly, Starbucks made no changes to their policies to accomodate for the Affordable Care Act. That's because they treated their employees quite well ahead of time.

Consumer products are not the best market for corporate corruption.

Yes, because I'm talking about the price of DVDs and not the price of food, and basic goods like that.

If the food price goes up because poor people can afford more food, is that really a crisis?

Furthermore, a doubling of the wage is the equivalent of doubling the amount of employees a corporation has. For WalMart, with 1.4 million employees, it's like they now have 2.8 million. That's not easy to pay for, and no, they don't just have pools of money sitting around. They're constantly faced with lawsuits (that get dismissed before media hear about them, but they have to pay for defense anyway to get them dismissed), people complaining and damage control, etc, even when they do everything they can for people.

Corporations are not "greedy" and they do not just have money trees sitting around. That's an invention of liberals to justify their beliefs on corporations being bad (kinda how like "Keep your doctor!" and "Everyone'll be insured!" were with Obamacare.. oh wait, people lost their doctors, and the amount of cancellations was well more than the number of new insured... hmm..)

Fun graph: Wal-Mart absolutely can be a profitable corporation and take a serious margin hit by paying their employees. Costco does it, and pays $11.50 an hour to start. The CEO even challenged the government to raise the minimum wage to over $10.

Honestly, people asking for 15 dollars an hour is RIDICULOUS. You know why?? Number one, it causes MAJOR inflation, don't even TRY and deny that FACT, and secondly, what if they do get it?? Then they're going to act like the sky is the limit and ask for 20, 25 and so on.

That's funny. Because last I checked, wage growth is not only below productivity growth; it's below the inflation rate. The minimum wage has fallen pretty steadily in value for ~35 years.

And prove to me that a little inflation is a bad thing.

 

[kalyee]

Honestly, people asking for 15 dollars an hour is RIDICULOUS. You know why?? Number one, it causes MAJOR inflation, don't even TRY and deny that FACT, and secondly, what if they do get it?? Then they're going to act like the sky is the limit and ask for 20, 25 and so on.


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Is this... Serious? I can't tell, because it's really silly.

I am actually disgusted by the amount of cruel and ignorant views towards "poor people" in this thread. Some of you need some serious tough love education.
For anyone out there saying that a higher wage or more benefits for those who aren't as fortunate would further leave no incentive for poor people to work... Are you kidding me? Incentive? Poor people don't have the option to choose wether or not working is worth it for them. You either push yourself to the absolute limit or you run the risk of starving, or dying on the streets. I struggle every single day to provide enough food to have the energy to work an awful job that hardly pays enough to cover the commute and the bills, while living with my boyfriend and kitten in a room smaller than my parents walk in closet just so I don't end up living under a bridge with the hundreds of other Oregonians who can't find a job reliable enough to provide a decent living wage in a city where even the crummy suburbs are too expensive to rent in. We had two jobs each and still couldn't afford - on a tight grocery budget, never going out to do anything - a place even remotely close to our work and eventually had to live in our car - two peoples worldly possessions in a Buick Century? Awesome! - until we convinced my parents - both unemployed and having to sell their home now as a result - that we wouldn't burden them financially if we moved back in.
Minimum wage jobs are almost never enough to support even the simplest and most frugal lifestyle - if you can even find one. Housing prices are ridiculous in a lot of areas. These things need to change, because no, it's not as simple as just going to medical school and getting a high paying job - in a perfect world I could snap my fingers and have that American dream lined up for me, but it sure doesn't work like that, and anyone who thinks that simply working hard and going to college is enough to pull you out of poverty is, frankly, really really ignorant.
People complaining that the government gives out too many benefits, just for people to abuse them/lose the will to work? Just because a handful of people abuse the system doesn't mean the majority do. In a household of four where all but one individual was unemployed and that person made less than $500 a month, maybe $10 left over after his bills not including groceries, do you know how much money was available in food stamps? Less than what most of you/your parents spend on groceries for a week, and that's supposed to last the entire month.
I work at a paper route and I can't tell you how many stories I read of people ending up on government support and still struggling so hard to get by that throwing in the towel on life seems like a better alternative than watching people who don't work hard and grow up rich enjoy the high life while those who struggle and work themselves near death can barely eat two meals a day.

I'm not saying I want the government to step in and tell everyone what to do with their money, I'm just saying the way things are set up in this country is really messed up.
I worked at a yogurt shop as a supervisor in a rich area of town and was disgusted by the conversations I'd overhear from the kids who'd stop in. As I commuted 2 and a half hours on bus a day to work for pennies that I could hardly get by on, these kids in their first two years of high school were gushing about the new convertibles their parents got them to replace the cars they got last season as a present. If you don't think priorities are off in this country, you haven't really seen how the wealthy behave in this country.


I could go on about this forever, because frankly it just sickens me how out of the loop a lot of you are just because you're not struggling all that hard.

Tl;dr - You all are insane if you think nothing is wrong with the way the system is set up in this country

 

[Whispered]

And the government needs to give people the adequate basics for people to be able to take care of themselves. Do a little research and find out how impossible it is for a homeless person to secure a job. Kinda hard to put an address down on a resume when you don't have one.



It's hard to avoid corporations, but these named are among the least terrible corporations. Starbucks is particularly reasonable. If I recall correctly, Starbucks made no changes to their policies to accomodate for the Affordable Care Act. That's because they treated their employees quite well ahead of time.

Consumer products are not the best market for corporate corruption.



If the food price goes up because poor people can afford more food, is that really a crisis?



Fun graph: Wal-Mart absolutely can be a profitable corporation and take a serious margin hit by paying their employees. Costco does it, and pays $11.50 an hour to start. The CEO even challenged the government to raise the minimum wage to over $10.

That's funny. Because last I checked, wage growth is not only below productivity growth; it's below the inflation rate. The minimum wage has fallen pretty steadily in value for ~35 years.

And prove to me that a little inflation is a bad thing.

How does someone afford more food if the price goes up?

 

[Thrill]

How does someone afford more food if the price goes up?

They make more money.

Unless you're telling me that minimum wage growth causes disproportionately large inflation, which sounds ridiculous considering that inflation would be anchored by people who already make more than the proposed minimum wage.

 

[Whispered]

They make more money.

Unless you're telling me that minimum wage growth causes disproportionately large inflation, which sounds ridiculous considering that inflation would be anchored by people who already make more than the proposed minimum wage.

no, i'm saying it causes proportionately large inflation - as in 1:1 ratio. You raise minimum wage, inflation is about the same amount. Which leaves you with where you were before - except now the family who couldn't afford a 4 dollar gallon of milk can't afford a 8 gallon dollar of milk

 

[LooseSeal]

no, i'm saying it causes proportionately large inflation - as in 1:1 ratio. You raise minimum wage, inflation is about the same amount. Which leaves you with where you were before - except now the family who couldn't afford a 4 dollar gallon of milk can't afford a 8 gallon dollar of milk

That sounds like a rather oversimplified approach to economics. Bear in mind that there are countless other factors at play here, all of which would be effected by a rise in the minimum wage, some for better and perhaps some for worse. But you can't just go ahead and assume a 1:1 ratio.

Edit: As a matter of fact, some economists believe that raising the minimum wage will actually spur job growth.

http://www.epi.org/publication/bp357-federal-minimum-wage-increase/

 

[Thrill]

no, i'm saying it causes proportionately large inflation - as in 1:1 ratio. You raise minimum wage, inflation is about the same amount. Which leaves you with where you were before - except now the family who couldn't afford a 4 dollar gallon of milk can't afford a 8 gallon dollar of milk

Too simplified.

You have millions of people making more than minimum wage. They're not buying more food than before. The demand increase only comes from the people getting raises from the wage increase.

Granted, supply and demand aren't perfectly linear, and there's elasticity involved, but considering the amount of food that's thrown out from grocery store shelves, I'd imagine that the nature of the supply would tend to resist inflation.

 

[Whispered]

Too simplified.

You have millions of people making more than minimum wage. They're not buying more food than before. The demand increase only comes from the people getting raises from the wage increase.

Granted, supply and demand aren't perfectly linear, and there's elasticity involved, but considering the amount of food that's thrown out from grocery store shelves, I'd imagine that the nature of the supply would tend to resist inflation.

it's not supply... it's the fact that companies will raise their prices to pay for the workers increased wages. And if you increase minimum wage, then you'll have to increase higher-paying jobs too - otherwise there's no incentive to work yourself up. it's simple economics.

 

[allison]

So they close the religion thread but not this? Lol


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[Whispered]

So they close the religion thread but not this? Lol


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As far as I can see this (specific instance) isn't controversial to the point anyone's even remotely being rude to anyone else. Not much reason to close it if it's just a talk.

 

[allison]

As far as I can see this (specific instance) isn't controversial to the point anyone's even remotely being rude to anyone else. Not much reason to close it if it's just a talk.

Yeah but in the thread about religion, halycon or whoever posted the rule, and I believe that highly controversial topics such as political discussion were prohibited, and it doesnt matter if anyones being rude to each other. Correct me if im wrong, but I dont think anyone was being rude on the religion thread. Seems a bit ridiculous and hypocritical that they would close that thread but leave this one opened.