Minimum Wage

Goddess · Apr 16, 2014

Actually, it's arguable that those working minimum waged jobs doing manual labor work much harder than those sitting behind a desk making 6 figures. And they're being paid much, much less than the person sitting behind a desk.

So I agree with you Em, working a minimum waged job doesn't mean you lack motivation to get a better education to get a better job, and it certainly doesn't mean the skills needed for that waitress position are basically nothing. I know a lot of people that can't be a waitress because they can't do the job or can't handle the job because it's too much for them.

Emelon · Apr 16, 2014

Goddess said:

Exactly my point, thank you. Manual labor/minimum wage jobs are generally the backbone of our entire country yet the pay rate is garbage

Thrill · Apr 16, 2014

allison said:

No one asked for everyone to have the same income. Just that everyone has enough to get by. More skilled (and in some cases, luckier) workers will enjoy further luxuries.

A few things to break up here...

You do not seem to understand Marxism. Whether you agree with it or not, it's a pretty significant historical moment, and you should understand it in the wake of bringing it up.

We'll start at the end: Soviet Russia failed because it was a totalitarian regime whose government abused resources for military use, rather than for civilian use (i.e. guns vs. butter). They went wrong in a lot of ways, so they naturally failed. China failed on account of yet more government resource mismanagement coupled with a (yet again) totalitarian regime, this time dead-set on destroying thousands of years of cultural heritage. These aren't sustainable business models, but we're missing the best part: these aren't Marxist models either! How so? Marx defined a classless, moneyless, and stateless society as the communist utopia. Were Soviet Russia and Communist China states? You bet. So are these the two communist behemoths that prove the inefficacy of an entire system? Heck no; they're not even real communists.

In any case, I'm sure if the United States instituted anarcho-capitalism alongside the totalitarian policies of the "Communist" states, we'd see the exact same results -- the issues that destroyed the USSR are not exclusive to "Communism," nor are they inherent to Marxism.

As for the loss of human rights under Marxism, um, no. Not really. The whole basis of Marxism is that the capitalist system is inherently exploitative. The owners of the means of production control all labor. If someone wants to work, they need permission from the factory owner or the field owner or what have you. Because of this barrier to work, the wealthy have leverage over the poor which can be exploited for the benefit of the wealthy class. Thus, as the cliche goes, the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. Marxism destroys this potential rights violation by enabling access to the means of production to everyone, equally. The workers own their factories. The rich landowner doesn't control the factory, and neither does the government. Things get done because people are naturally good, and they will provide for their fellow man as needed.

The other thing is that there's a logical leap here. A parallel conversation:
> My house is cold. I want better windows to keep it warm during the winter.
< Are you suggesting that you need a whole new house?

The biggest barrier to being a doctor or lawyer is the fact that the cost of education in this country is insane. Fix that, and people will go back to those jobs. A $10 minimum wage is not going to leave the medical field bereft of talent, especially when many people can't get into medical school.

EDIT: We can absolutely afford a minimum wage increase. Study: http://www.epi.org/publication/ib341-raising-federal-minimum-wage/
Also, Costco pays I think a $10+ starting wage, and they have tidy profits on low-priced goods. No reason Wal-Mart or McDonalds can't afford that, especially at their scales.

allison · Apr 17, 2014

Emelye said:

I don't think you're giving people with minimum wage jobs enough credit. Although most minimum wage jobs don't require very much skill, often times they require a lot more time and hard work. Anyone can be a waiter or a waitress, but not everyone can deal with the work, effort, tolerance, service, etc required to do the job right. It seems like it would be an easy job, but it can get exhausting fairly quickly and because of low pay rates, waiters and waitresses have to pick up many hours just to be able to afford to live somewhat comfortably which further increases the amount of work and effort that goes into these kinds of jobs. Also, not everyone can afford to go to college and work towards a higher paying job like doctor/lawyer. I don't know of many people who would choose to pay the fortune of schooling to be a doctor/lawyer if they didn't have an interest in that career path so I doubt raising minimum wage would significantly reduce the amount of doctors/lawyers in the population. Not everyone is as lazy as you seem to be making them out to be

If you are smart enough in school, you can get scholarships. Anybody can get scholarships if they work hard.

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Princess_Stitch · Apr 17, 2014

Goddess said:

I'd like to point out that we have to consider the different living costs in each state.

My mom, who is in a salaried manager position working 50-60 hrs a week, is already making less than regular employees in hourly positions with no college education. If minimum wage is raised and her's isn't, she's moving down to an hourly position. For her, it's about supporting the family - not having a higher/more powerful job. Why should she put in the extra work and risk her safety in the management role when she's making less than cashiers?

Goddess · Apr 17, 2014

allison said:

That's actually not true. I was top of my class, but wasn't eligible for any scholarships (hence why I ended up in technical school, because I couldn't afford real college). Scholarships go off of more than just intelligence, and not everyone that works hard or is a brainiac, is eligible for a scholarship.

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Princess_Stitch said:

I realized that each state has different tax rates on goods, and the living expenses vary. So why not raise the minimum wage to a decent livable amount that compliments the cost of living in every state?

Well that was essentially the point of my first argument. Salaried jobs aren't the best thing to have often times, because you're making a fixed rate of income regardless of how much you work vs. the employees making minimum wages with rates that pile on the more hours they work. You essentially end up making more money than someone with a salary (depending upon the job) with minimum wages. But the other issue with minimum wage, is a vast majority of employers/companies do anything they can to keep their minimum wage workers under a certain amount of hours so they don't have to pay them extra. So you're kind of stuck in both fields.

For example, my father is a postal worker for USPS, and has been for 20 yrs now (he's coming up on early retirement). He's had the opportunity for years to make a Supervisory salary. Which in the long run, would be a pay downgrade, with more hours. He makes more money (over the course of 20 yrs of raises) now as a Postal Clerk (the person you speak to at the window in a Post Office) and making overtime than he would have as a Supervisor.

As shown in the video about Walmart employees, it won't cost most companies or consumers hardly anything to raise the minimum wages to a decent living amount. The cashier at Walmart could go up to $13 /hour and be able to buy food for her family, without having to cost taxpayers $300 million in food stamps.

For example, my sister-in-law is a Pharmacy Technician at Walmart. I forget her exact amount of wages, but she makes more than the cashiers do I know that. Yet her and my brother make so little between 2 jobs, they qualify for food stamps and have been on food stamps for months. If someone in a career path like that can't afford to buy food for their family (between 2 incomes might I add, my brother is a security officer for Allied Barton with a contract to work as a concierge at a highfalutin apartment building in the city where the apartments start at $1 million). Between 2 incomes, they can't scrape together enough money to feed their 3 children, so they have to rely on food stamps. Clearly the minimum wage rate is still too low, even when you're paid over the minimum wage. Either the cost of living is too high, or the wages are too low.

As stated above:

kalyee · Apr 17, 2014

allison said:

This is such a false and ignorant statement. If the world worked as you describe, we'd all be making enough to live in luxury with our dream careers and fancy degrees simply because we "worked hard" and were smart enough. That's not the way it is.
Do you think it's enjoyable to work 40 hours plus overtime at a job - if not multiple jobs - where people treat you like unintelligent, lower class garbage, doing menial tasks for a pay rate so low you can't even afford a roof over your head and groceries without seriously compromising your overall quality of life? I sure as heck don't. But that's the only option a lot of people have. If that, since jobs are really incredibly scarce a lot of places.
If I could make six figures sitting behind a desk and doing a few reports, I'd be ecstatic. Unfortunately, I didn't grow up privileged, and a lot of the things you say anybody can do and have aren't available to me.

When I worked as a supervisor, I made $9.50 an hour - this was back when minimum wage in Oregon was $8.80 - but to afford an apartment - not a spacious one, but a box with a fridge and a stove - even remotely close to my place of work - which wasn't in the big city, even - I'd have needed to make at least $11 an hour to get by each month on a budget of rent, utilities, and groceries - zero luxuries mind you.
I couldn't just go out and get a higher paying job. It's not that easy.
The way you describe fair payment, you think that because what I was doing didn't require the same skill as a doctor, I didn't deserve the chance to make enough to have a roof over my head and food to eat?

People wonder why government assistance is so heavily abused. I personally feel like a huge part of it is that a lot of people are left with no other options than to do whatever they can to qualify because without it they're left in the dust. (Not to say some of it isn't just dishonesty and laziness.)

Just my two cents, coming from someone who's worked more minimum wage jobs than I'd care to count and has never been even remotely okay financially regardless of being responsible.

The_Jedi_Master · Apr 17, 2014

You guys argue about the morality and rights of it all. Reality is reality. Increasing the price of labor will only decrease the quantity demanded, and making competing for that same position more difficult.

allison · Apr 17, 2014

The_Jedi_Master said:

thank you for saying what i was trying to say

god bless

oatman · Apr 17, 2014

Minimum Wage should be bound to inflation, it's that simple. The last minimum wage increase was in 2009. It is likely in the upcoming years that our congress will bump up the 7.25 to around 8.25-9.00 to keep up with inflation.
Also minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage, people that live on the minimum wage are either too lazy to find a job or they lack motivation to learn a trade that can allow them to make more. Since I made a pretty firm claim I'm gonna back it up. I have a ton of friends that picked up software development, they don't have college degrees, and they are making 75,000 year starting. If you want to make a decent living you need to learn a skill that other people need.

Oreo · Apr 17, 2014

oatman said:

um...no. lol. That's definitely not the case. I'm glad your friends have had lots of success, but times are tough and jobs are scarce, and even in the most in demand fields, it's hard to find work. ps. Just because you are proficient in an in demand skill doesn't mean you're going to wake up one day and have a job.

oatman · Apr 17, 2014

Oreo said:

Times are not tough... that to me sounds like a recitation from watching too much for-profit news. According to the S&P, Dunn and Bradstreet, and even the President himself, our country has fully recovered from the recession. The stock market is higher than it has ever been before, and there are jobs everywhere. The people that are having a hard time finding jobs are those that are not perusing STEM related fields.

I challenge anyone here that is making a subpar wage to take a couple programming classes, or get IT certifications. If you apply to serious jobs, and if you live in a metropolitan area, I guarantee you that you will have a decent paying job in less than a month. (OR) if you don't want to do IT or Software Development, considering enrolling in college and start pursuing an engineering degree. This is another great avenue to work towards if you really want to make money.

allison · Apr 17, 2014

not to mention if the minimum wage increases, the amount of layoffs would increase. Simple economics. I know raising the minimum wage sounds really good so we can help poor people, BUT unfortunately we do not live in a fairy rainbow pixie dust world. We have to open our eyes up to reality, and basic economics.

kalyee · Apr 17, 2014

oatman said:

Please tell me more about how the reason I'll be without a home next week is because I'm lazy and lacking in motivation.

Life isn't so cut and dry. Every city has a different "job market" so to speak, and moving expenses vary greatly depending on where you are. Every situation is different, and while some are lazy, you can't just say that anyone on minimum wage is choosing to stay there. Learning a trade isn't as simple as just learning a trade. There's a lot that goes into it - including money, which a lot of people don't have to begin with - and time - which is hard to come by when you're already struggling.

Maybe minimum wage shouldn't be a living wage but the amount of resources and options out there for people who weren't born to privilege or special circumstances and end up struggling to survive regardless of how hard they work and responsible they are isn't enough.

oatman · Apr 17, 2014

When I read statements like that, all I hear are excuses.
-Things are too hard....
-I don't have enough money to even begin...
-I wasn't born as fortunate as you...
-I don't have the time, my time is simply too precious to learn something new...

You already live in the United States? What more of a privilege do you want? 0_o? I have a couple of online pen-pals that live in Indonesia, you wanna talk lack of privilege and opportunity? You should talk to them.

kalyee · Apr 17, 2014

oatman said:

I'll agree to disagree then, but ask kindly that you refrain from making rude assumptions on peoples situations you know nothing about.

Just because you're not facing the struggles of some doesn't make others struggles any less real. Not every person struggling to get by in this country is doing so because of laziness or excuses, and it's really ignorant to assume so.

allison · Apr 17, 2014

kalyee said:

Blaming rich people doesn't work. I'm very sorry you have to struggle more than rich people in life, but that is life. If we raised the minimum wage, employers would find that it is cheaper to not have that person working for them than to raise their wage, so they would get laid off. Simple. It actually hurts the minimum wage workers in the long run, because they would be the ones stuck without a job.

Oreo · Apr 17, 2014

oatman said:

That's so insulting and disrespectful to every single hardworking person out there that is not even close to making ends meet. I don't even know how to respond to this.

allison · Apr 17, 2014

I think the liberal media is somewhat to blame. When they get a hold of something, they blow it way out of proportion, brainwashing every viewer to think the same way that they do. Good thing I don't watch biased ******** such as CNN and MSNBC. Also I am so sick of "political correctness" and people walking on eggshells so minorities don't get offended.

kalyee · Apr 17, 2014

allison said:

I don't blame anyone, apologies if it came off like I was directing blame at the rich.
I'm not saying raising the minimum wage is the cure all. I'm saying there should be some kind of something out there for people who work hard and still fall short because of the way things are set up.
Just because a bunch of kids void of adversity think that the world is running smooth for everyone and only the lazy aren't getting ahead doesn't mean that's actually how it is. I've been on my own since I was 15. It's not easy out there and the opportunities you'd like to think everyone has a shot at simply aren't available to everyone.
The rich aren't to blame, no.

Minimum Wage

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